Glider Lawsuit Discussion Thread

[biology]

In my opinion. Cases like these are what are ruining our economy. Big companies like Blizzard Entertainment are failing to realize that products like Glider are actually helping our economy. They are cheating in their game, but creating jobs to help stop the cheating. They are bringing business to the United States from people outside of the US that purchase glider. It's stupid in my opinion that they would shut down glider, let alone take MDY to court for millions of dollars to shut down a program that is benefiting the US economy. Money from outside the US helps the US economy, a lot of a little still benefits the US. Big greedy companies like Blizzard are ruining it for the little guys. Sure stuck up wanna be "Elite" raiding guilds don't like gliders because they worked oh so hard to get where they are. While people who don't have the time to do the same are still benefiting from not being at the computer. Glider helps the WoW economy in my opinion as well. Provides more items to the auction, more gold to the server, just more flat out. You will spend more time farming the materials manually then someone botting while playing their main account. I am rambling on about this yes, because I personally believe that glider is for the better good rather then Blizzard making more money to throw away aimlessly to more BS lawsuits and another nice mercedez to the lawyer that wins the case for Blizzzard, which I'm positive Blizzard will win, no doubt. Either way, this case is senseless in my opinion and will just cause more havock and time wasting then could be spent doing otherwise. You know blizzard could probably work harder at fixing the bugs then getting headaches with legal stuff? Maybe fix hunter pets ya know? Maybe even mobs in outlands that evade bug? Should I keep going with little bugs that they don't care about because they want more money from MDY from more claims about nonesense over a program a guy made to play WoW for him and it was good so he decided to sell it massively so other people could have a life outside of WoW? Meh, I'm off hope you enjoyed my rant and see my point of view as a good one...

[oigres2]

I can't belive how miss informed you guy really are on what the whole Glider v Warden court case is about. Xarg0 summed it up, it isn't about reverse engineering, it's about the protection of copyright material which Blizzard are entitled to protect. You only need to go and play Diablo 2 and see how botting can ruin a game. Warden is a protective measure Blizzard has used to protect their copyright material, Glider bypasses this measure to access the copyrighted material and it is here that the law is broken.

And on the 'releasing the source code' that would play into the hands of Blizzard as they would know how Glider circumvents Warden. Remember Glider requires authentication to run and without constant and dedicated updates to coincide with Warden updates, would quickly fail.

[Deathisfear]

Wall of Text *Crits for 100000* *You Die*. If anything. Blizzard will probably win. It's like 10 lawyers vs 1 Lawyer besides that Blizzard is a Mutli-Million Dollar Company and the clearly stated *NO THIRD PARTY MODS* Not that I'm against it or anything I'm just saying.

[Chz420]

Yes, no mods indeed.
But Glider hasn't modded any of the games coding, or even USED any of it.
All of the copyrighted material still, and always will, belong to Blizzard.

People who sell their characters on ebay and such usually put a notice that you are paying for their time, not their character, because that belongs to Blizzard.
And it is not illegal to buy and sell characters, but against the ToS, in which case they can ban you.

So with Glider, you pay them for their program, which could potentially be for anything (IE just like any other program), however, this one pertains to Blizzard. Against the ToS? Yes. Against the law? No.

Perhaps Blizzard is attempting to lose this on purpose to get some more attention to Glider, the cheat that beat Blizzard. Thus, gaining Blizzard more revenue and also a nice new beefy statistic for their "botting banhammer."

With all due respect.

[Cypher]

Yes, no mods indeed.
But Glider hasn't modded any of the games coding, or even USED any of it.
All of the copyrighted material still, and always will, belong to Blizzard.

People who sell their characters on ebay and such usually put a notice that you are paying for their time, not their character, because that belongs to Blizzard.
And it is not illegal to buy and sell characters, but against the ToS, in which case they can ban you.

So with Glider, you pay them for their program, which could potentially be for anything (IE just like any other program), however, this one pertains to Blizzard. Against the ToS? Yes. Against the law? No.

Perhaps Blizzard is attempting to lose this on purpose to get some more attention to Glider, the cheat that beat Blizzard. Thus, gaining Blizzard more revenue and also a nice new beefy statistic for their "botting banhammer."

With all due respect.

You're an idiot. They're suing glider into the ground and filling claims against all the other public bot developers. They want bots gone, its that simple. There's no conspiracy.

[Chz420]

Does the program damage any of the copyrighted material of Blizzard? That is, Warden, the characters, the image, or the coding of WoW?
One can argue that it bypasses Warden, but not without a person running the program for themselves.
Could it be perhaps, that everybody who has bought Glider never used it? *shhhh*

It reminds me quite a bit about the old witch hunts. Assuming that bypassing Warden is illegal (which probably isn't true, but lets assume for arguments sake), then if Glider IS infact doing its job and bypassing Warden and thus becoming illegal, how would Blizzard prove this? If it is undetectable, then how can they tell that Glider is the culprit? If it is detected, then where is the issue? This is where a "money back guarantee" comes into play. In this case, Blizzard would be entitled to a hearty sum of $25...

Also, is it the responsibility of the program to accept legality issues or is it by the user of such a program? Left alone, Glider does nothing (I know what you are thinking). But code initiated by the user to perform automated actions within a game that simulates human interaction anyway. What I am saying is, if I sat in game and copied the movements of a botter I saw down to a T, how would the game differentiate between the two? Is it a matter of opinion?

Could it be that merely having a website about some mythical "botting program" get me into legal trouble with Blizzard? Is there a cash transaction that must take place before anything is "taken seriously?" And how can a program proven to exist in the first place, could it be that Blizzard themselves forked over $25 for Glider?

That being said, if Blizzard does indeed win, what would happen to those who purchased this program? Would they be sought after and charged under legal issues or simply banned from the game or ignored even? Would Blizzard have to face this same fate? Obviously not.
But then again, what happens when they bust a drug dealer? They dont go after all the druggies hes sold to...
So that means even after Blizzard theoretically wins against Glider, they will still have botting issues (most likely from Glider users).
In order to counteract this, they will need to update their software, Warden, to block this incoming code.
The only way to acheive this would be to examine Glider's code. Which is, under law, copyrighted as a sellable product by a certified company. So Blizzard would be essentially locking themselves up under their same claim.

And idiot?

[Coraci]

The court can order MDY to terminate the use of Glider.. which is what Blizzard is trying to achive at the moment.

[Xarg0]

Does the program damage any of the copyrighted material of Blizzard? That is, Warden, the characters, the image, or the coding of WoW?
One can argue that it bypasses Warden, but not without a person running the program for themselves.
Could it be perhaps, that everybody who has bought Glider never used it? *shhhh*

It reminds me quite a bit about the old witch hunts. Assuming that bypassing Warden is illegal (which probably isn't true, but lets assume for arguments sake), then if Glider IS infact doing its job and bypassing Warden and thus becoming illegal, how would Blizzard prove this? If it is undetectable, then how can they tell that Glider is the culprit? If it is detected, then where is the issue? This is where a "money back guarantee" comes into play. In this case, Blizzard would be entitled to a hearty sum of $25...

Also, is it the responsibility of the program to accept legality issues or is it by the user of such a program? Left alone, Glider does nothing (I know what you are thinking). But code initiated by the user to perform automated actions within a game that simulates human interaction anyway. What I am saying is, if I sat in game and copied the movements of a botter I saw down to a T, how would the game differentiate between the two? Is it a matter of opinion?

Could it be that merely having a website about some mythical "botting program" get me into legal trouble with Blizzard? Is there a cash transaction that must take place before anything is "taken seriously?" And how can a program proven to exist in the first place, could it be that Blizzard themselves forked over $25 for Glider?

That being said, if Blizzard does indeed win, what would happen to those who purchased this program? Would they be sought after and charged under legal issues or simply banned from the game or ignored even? Would Blizzard have to face this same fate? Obviously not.
But then again, what happens when they bust a drug dealer? They dont go after all the druggies hes sold to...
So that means even after Blizzard theoretically wins against Glider, they will still have botting issues (most likely from Glider users).
In order to counteract this, they will need to update their software, Warden, to block this incoming code.
The only way to acheive this would be to examine Glider's code. Which is, under law, copyrighted as a sellable product by a certified company. So Blizzard would be essentially locking themselves up under their same claim.

And idiot?

Oh yeah, Blizzard needs the source code of Glider to detect the rootkit....

[truniceguy]

Just a question here... did nobody else pick up on the fact that Blizz was awarded $6.5m on 3/3? I formated some text (moved footnotes, legal formatting, etc.) from the judgement on the 2nd and here's what I found (pardon the wall of text):

(you can navigate manually to the file via the OPs link, or directly to the document here: MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. et al Document 114 - :: Justia Docs )

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
MDY INDUSTRIES, LLC,
Case No.: CV06-02555-PHX-DGC
Plaintiff/Counterdefendant
ORDER AND STIPULATED
JUDGMENT
vs
BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT, INC.,
and VIVENDI GAMES, INC.
Defendants/Counterclaimants

BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT, INC.,
and VIVENDI GAMES, INC.
Third-Party Plaintiffs,
vs.
MICHAEL DONNELLY,
Third-Party Defendant.

In this Court’s July 14, 2008 Order, the Court granted summary judgment in favor of Blizzard with respect to MDY’s liability for tortious interference (Count I) and contributory and vicarious copyright infringement (Counts II-III). That Order also granted summary judgment in favor of MDY on a portion of the DMCA claim (Count IV) and the unfair competition claim (Count VI) and contemplated that trial would follow MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. et al on damages for Counts I, II and III as well as on the claims, or portions thereof, that remained unresolved -- portions of the DMCA claim, the trademark claim, and the unjust enrichment claim.

On September 26, 2008, the Court entered an Order and Stipulated Judgment in which it affirmed certain undisputed facts submitted by the parties and entered a stipulated judgment against MDY Industries, LLC in the amount of $6,000,000 on Counts I, II, and III of Blizzard’s Counterclaims and Third Party Complaint the “Complaint” for damages incurred up through September 1, 2008. (That same Order dismissed Blizzard’s trademark and unjust enrichment claims per the parties’ stipulation.) That Order and Stipulated Judgment also held that in the event the Court determined that Michael Donnelly was personally liable under Counts I, II, or III of the Complaint, the $6,000,000 damages award would extend equally to him.

On January 28, 2009, this Court entered an Order finding Michael Donnelly personally liable on Counts I, II, and III of the Complaint, and finding MDY Industries LLC and Michael Donnelly liable on Count IV of the Complaint, Blizzard’s claims under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act “DMCA”, 17 U.S.C. §§ 1201a2 and b1. The parties now seek entry of this Order and Stipulated Judgment to address damages incurred by Blizzard on Counts I, II, and III from September 1, 2008 through February 23, 2009, and to address Michael Donnelly’s personal liability, based on the undisputed facts included in the September 28, 2008 Order and Stipulated Judgment and the parties’ stipulation here as to Blizzard’s ongoing enforcement costs and MDY and Donnelly’s continued profits from September 2008 to February 23, 2009, and subject to the terms set forth herein.

The parties have attempted unsuccessfully to reach agreement on a stipulated damages amount for MDY and Michael Donnelly’s violations of the DMCA Count
IV of the Complaint. Accordingly, Blizzard will file a motion seeking entry of judgment on the DMCA claims based on a computation of statutory damages or, in
the alternative, an amount mirroring the actual damages as stipulated to by the parties for the copyright and tortious interference claims. MDY and Donnelly shall offer their own proposed damages award on the DMCA claims.

The parties agree and understand that this stipulated judgment will be the final word on Blizzard’s right to recover damages on Counts I-III of the Complaint. That is, the parties knowingly waive their right to argue in any future proceeding that the damages that Blizzard is entitled to receive on Counts I-III of the Complaint for conduct from June 14, 2005 through February 23, 2009 should be more or less than the damages specified herein. Furthermore, even if the determinations of summary judgment or the Court’s January 28 Order after bench trial are appealed and reversed or modified on appeal, this stipulated judgment as to damages shall remain in effect as a stipulation as to the agreed-upon amount of damages related to each of Counts I, II, and III of the complaint so long as liability on any of those counts is affirmed, or is subsequently proven to a jury.

WHEREFORE, based upon the disputed and undisputed facts and the agreement of the parties, IT IS ORDERED:

1. Blizzard shall be entitled to recover the total sum of $6,500,000 as monetary damages for counts I, II, and III of its Counterclaims and Third Party Complaint related to the sale of Glider up through and including February 23, 2009.

2. Blizzard shall not be entitled to double or triple recovery for counts I, II, and III. That is, Blizzard shall be entitled to receive a total of $6,500,000 in damages for counts I, II, and III. However, should liability on any one or two of the counts be reversed on appeal, any remaining count shall independently support the $6,500,000 award.

3. Michael Donnelly is personally liable for the $6,500,000 damage award under counts I, II, and III.

Dated this 2nd day of March, 2009.


DAMN.

[oigres2]

Chz420, you have no idea what your talking about... you talk about modding/no modding, this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with modding!!!!!!! so get that out of your head. The breaking of ToS/EULA isn't what the law suit is about either... just because a program breaks a games ToS/EULA doesn't necessarily mean its illegal.

I'm gonna make it simple so maybe you can understand whats really going on in the court case.

Simple Version: Blizzard are saying that Glider bypasses the security measure within Warden to allow access to the copyrighted material which belongs to Blizzard to allow Glider to work, Glider DO NOT have permission to use this copyrighted material. Here is the law at applies:

TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 12 > § 1201:

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

OK, now read that nice and carefully and it's pretty much what Glider has done. Not only that, The owner of Glider admitted he knew it broke Blizzard's EULA and TOU.

Tho this is a very simplified version of what Blizzard is arguing... it does get alot more technical, but without trying to confuse you, it does involves the copying to RAM BUT, here is the fundamental part of the argument. Blizzard acknowledges that this isn't against any copyright law but it is when accessing and copying data FROM THEIR SERVERS, such as ambience sound triggers, mob spawning points and anything that gets copied to your RAM thats controlled server side. A clear example is this, if you have WoWModel viewer, you can load and see most of WoW's material... tho you are copying this to your RAM, Blizzard says that this isn't copyright but that you are just looking at the literal form of the game and not actually playing or interacting with it. But log into the Blizzard servers and you start copying the non-literal forms of the game into your RAM.

OK, so now we can go back to Glider, Glider bypasses Warden which is a technical measure to protect Blizzad's copyright material (trigger sounds/ ambience sound trigger/mob spawn points ect), in this case its the non-literal form of the game and thats where they are breaking the law.


hope that clears it up... Why are Blizzard suing Glider?? You simpley need to go play Diablo 2 and see how botting can ruin a game!!!

[Deadly Tomato]

I still want to know what's going to happen with this! I'm not sure if I should use it again

[gryphons53]

I still want to know what's going to happen with this! I'm not sure if I should use it again

knock yourself out-
1. glider still runs
2. glider is still undetected
3. in the highly unlikely event that glider ever gave their client list to blizz that would be wayyy too much income for blizz to just throw out banning people.

As far as im concerned with glider - use it til you lose it

[tavadi]

Glider stopped
h ttp://vforums.mmoglider.com/showthread.php?p=1496419

[Masneb]

Yeah it appears so.

Would've been nice if it would still be able to run in a offline mode temporarily (out of their hands sort of thing), but it appears they actually have a way of preventing clients to run altogether from their end which is retarded.

Anyone know if a community workaround is going to be worked on?

[toxicsnipe]

RIP Glider