[PvE] Rogue Guide (Gear, rotation, specs etc.)

[huurka]

Hey guys. I've played rogue since 2005-2006 and only PvE, and I like to keep my gems, enchants and specs up to date and such. Also known as min-maxing.

So I got this idea to make a rogue guide, for people inexperienced with rogues to go after.

Specs, Glyphs and Poisons:
Mutilate: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Pretty much the only spec you should use in PvE.
Combat: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft What you MUST do with this spec is replace Sword Spec to your current weapon spec.
Poisons:
Mutilate: Instant (MH) Deadly (OH)
Combat: Wound (MH) Deadly (OH)



Gems, enchants and stat priorities.
Basically for Mutilate assuming you have 99 hit: AP/Agi > Expertise > Hit > Crit > Haste > ArPen.
If you are having a hard time with Mutilate, try some Expertise gems instead of AP/Agi.

Combat assuming you have 99 hit:
Tier 7 level: Agility > AP > Armor Penetration > Hit/Expertise.
Tier 8 level: Agility > Armor Penetration > AP > Hit/Expertise
Tier 9 level: Armor Penetration > Agility > AP > Hit/Expertise

Now, let's get on to gems. Basically you want the BEST gems you can get.
So I will suggest you to get epic gems, as gold is not hard to get these days *hint* botting *hint*.
Adjust my gems below to the list above, as I will use tier 9 gear level.

Red socket: Armor Penetration for combat, Agility for Mutilate.
Blue socket: Nightmare Tear (10+ stats) in the BEST blue socket. IF the socket bonus justifies 10 agi/arp loss then use a blue gem there. Else use a red gem.
Yellow socket: 20+ Hit if you're under 99 hit. Else you'll go for 10 Agi/10 Crit as Mutilate and Combat. Unless the socket bonus is crap. Then go for a red gem.
Meta socket: Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi 3% crit damage.)

Now let's go on to enchants, shall we?

Head Enchant: 50 AP 20 Crit.
Shoulder Enchant: 40 AP 15 Crit. Or Inscription enchant.
Cloak Enchant: 22 Agility. Or Engineering enchant.
Chest Enchant: 10 Stats.
Bracer Enchant: 50 AP. Or Leatherworking enchant.
Weapon Enchant: Berserking.
Glove Enchant: 44 AP.
Belt Enchant: Belt Buckle. Put a red gem in it, unless you need a blue/yellow gem to activate meta.
Leg Enchant: 75 AP 22 Crit.
Foot Enchant: Icewalker (12 hit 12 crit). Or Nitro Boots.
Ring Enchants (Enchanter only) 40+ AP.

"Rotations".
Basically for both specs is
Slice and Dice > Hunger for Blood (if you have it) > Rupture > Envenom/Eviscerate.

If you are Mutilate you should use Envenom.
If you are Combat you shoudl use Eviscerate.

For Mutilate you should get 4+ Combo Points before doing a finisher. It's only a waste of energy to get that 5th if you already have 4 Combo Points.

Assassination
Open with Garrote +1 CP
HFB
SnD (uses that 1 CP, possibly procs +1 CP)
Mut till 4 CP
Envenom (rupture is tempting, but not enough time on SnD and you don't want to lose it)
Mut till 4 CP
Rup
At this point keep 4CP Envenom, 4CP Rupture over and over while keeping HFB active.

If you can't open with Garrote (ToC Anub for example)...
Stealth anyways (overpower talent is very powerful)
Mut +2-3CP
SnD
Mut till 4CP
Rup
Mut once and Envenom (don't have time for 2 or you'll lose SnD)
At this point keep 4CP Envenom, 4CP Rupture over and over while keeping HFB active.

Cooldowns:
Many people don't know this, though not as powerful as combat's BF or KS, it's still worth mentioning... Vanish!

Overkill: While stealthed, and for 20 seconds after breaking stealth, you regenerate 30% additional energy.

It's best to do then when you have at least 50 energy pooled up. It will stop your auto attack, thus lower dps for a split second, so you want to have the energy to instantly bust out with an Ambush or Garrote.

I tend to save this for one of those times when i have my 4-5 combo points but i have 3-4 secs left on my Rupture (it will fall off before another full cycle) and plenty of time on my SnD.

Thanks, boazjuggalo! Click me to give reputation to boazjuggalo.


At start of fight use Garrote, then you get Combo Points around 2-3 and use Slice and Dice, and then Rupture.
Use any excessive Combo Points for Envenom/Eviscerate. But be careful, as you do not want to miss a HFB/Slice and Dice refresh!

Use your cooldowns, such as Cold Blood, Killing Spree, Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry. But, however, do not use Killing Spree and Adrenaline Rush together! As Killing Spree almost gives you full energy.

Gear.
Ah yes. With a very large variation of items, it's hard to find the perfect items. I will update this later with BiS gear pre-raid, t7 and tier 8.


Source(s)
Elitistjerks.com

Please correct me, or contribute to this guide. Proper credits will be given.
Thanks!

[Kartio]

Thank you mate, recently dinged 80 on my rogue and will start gearing it PvE wise soon.

[Swordcaller]

Hmm GJ didnt see the pve part at first but whatever xD /clap and +rep

[armen]

Great post mate (+Rep); I just dinged 61 on Coilfang and am already planning out my end-game gear

While on topic of Rogue and rotations, check out my nifty MutSpec DPS macro (using LuaNinja's hack).

Mutilate Spec DPS Macro

With this you can spam one button to do the whole rotation (my rotation is pretty much dead-on with what you described).

Enjoy! :wave:

[gogobananas]

99 hit? You're not aiming just for the special move hit cap, mutilate rogues should have the poison hit cap (which is 315, 237 with spriest/Imp FF, 210 with those + draenei). If you don't, gem some hit to reach it. Most rogues should have a decent chunk of hit with average gear though.

Also, there is a BiS gear list for mutilate/combat in one of the threads on EJ, if you're looking for it.

[omfgwtflolmfao]

Also I would like to say that a very helpful addon is EventHorizon it keeps track of your HFB, SnD, Rupture, Envenom, Deadly Poison stacks, TotT, and Overkill timers. It is a great help for mutilate rogues once you get the hang of it.

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...Continued.html

[Martin240]

Hit/Expertise caps are wrong in the first place. Also you cannot propose gems like you did, it's all about your gear and how much you already got. There is something like a cap for armor pen at which you should stop gemming for it for example. Also there are too many things which are connected to each other and you did not mention them like envenom refreshing your SnD up to 5 points duration and that there are three different rotations in combat depending on your gear. Another thing is that mutilate has points that you can swap depending on your stats.

All in all I can say that this is very basic and should be extended if you really feel it is necessary but there is a thread which contains everything you should know and I like to call it "the rogues bible" at EJ.

Here is a link: Pocket Guide to WOTLK (updated for 3.2) - Elitist Jerks

There is really EVERYTHING you should know except some insider tipps. You should use the spreadsheets proposed in this thread to get everything perfect as gems is a really tricky topic and you have to calculate so many things in that it is very time consuming without a proper spreadsheet. Also if you want to, try following the threads in the rogues section. They are so many good advices in these threads.

There is really no need to post such guides here. EJ already got them, you just need to read their forums. There are a few exceptions because not every class has such a huge advice topic but you should find enough to get the basics covered and your rotation running.

[boazjuggalo]

Basically for Mutilate assuming you have 99 hit: AP/Agi > Expertise > Hit > Crit > Haste > ArPen.

In all honestly, that's horrible advice. AP/Agi should NEVER come before you reaching 26 expertise (the from behind cap). Mut/Combat either one should have this priority:
1.) 99hit (yellow attack)
2.) 26exp (no dodges mean more combo points)
3.) 314hit (poison cap)
4.) everything else.

Expertise is a bigger deal than agi/ap because if you are dodged then you get no combo points. Lacking a combo point will let a SnD and/or rupture fall off too soon.

And as Mutilate spec the poison cap comes way before agi priority. Up until then you just be happy with the agi/ap on your gear. As you can see below on my damage meter, instant poison does over 15% of my overall damage. This is not using the weapon swap method either or it would be closer to 20-25%. Thats not to mention that Envenom is counted as nature damage as well as deadly poison. This moves spell hit up to effecting about 40% of my overall damage (50ish if i use weapon swap method).

Not hiding names because if Blizz wants me banned then they can find better reasons than me posting on MMOwned...
Hi, I'm Gidy. You can see below the Skada results from my past week's ToC Anub fight.

Just throwing this in here for anybody that don't know. When i mentioned the "weapon swap method", I was referring to having 2 good offhand weapons. One with Deadly Poison for starting off, and a second in your bag with Instant Poison. In Mutilate spec you have this nice little bonus of increased chance to apply instant poison following an envenom. So with the use of macros the theory crafters have shown that you can macro your OH weapons and follow an envenom up with the instant poison offhand, watch buff and switch back to deadly poison when it dissipates for a substantial increase in dps. I don't use this, tried it for about a week and it seemed like too much work for me. I can hit 7k with 10man raid buffs on stand still bosses (Gormok in ToC, or baby robot bitch in Ulduar for example) so an extra 300dps isn't going to make enough of a deal to matter to me.

[huurka]

In all honestly, that's horrible advice. AP/Agi should NEVER come before you reaching 26 expertise (the from behind cap). Mut/Combat either one should have this priority:
1.) 99hit (yellow attack)
2.) 26exp (no dodges mean more combo points)
3.) 314hit (poison cap)
4.) everything else.

Expertise is a bigger deal than agi/ap because if you are dodged then you get no combo points. Lacking a combo point will let a SnD and/or rupture fall off too soon.

And as Mutilate spec the poison cap comes way before agi priority. Up until then you just be happy with the agi/ap on your gear. As you can see below on my damage meter, instant poison does over 15% of my overall damage. This is not using the weapon swap method either or it would be closer to 20-25%. Thats not to mention that Envenom is counted as nature damage as well as deadly poison. This moves spell hit up to effecting about 40% of my overall damage (50ish if i use weapon swap method).

Not hiding names because if Blizz wants me banned then they can find better reasons than me posting on MMOwned...
Hi, I'm Gidy. You can see below the Skada results from my past week's ToC total damage done. This is every boss included if your wondering why the low dps. As many of you know, alot of ToC is running instead of fighting (Twin shields, underground phase of Anub, faction champs is stun lock/interupt on a healer, etc)

Just throwing this in here for anybody that don't know. When i mentioned the "weapon swap method", I was referring to having 2 good offhand weapons. One with Deadly Poison for starting off, and a second in your bag with Instant Poison. In Mutilate spec you have this nice little bonus of increased chance to apply instant poison following an envenom. So with the use of macros the theory crafters have shown that you can macro your OH weapons and follow an envenom up with the instant poison offhand, watch buff and switch back to deadly poison when it dissipates for a substantial increase in dps. I don't use this, tried it for about a week and it seemed like too much work for me. I can hit 7k with 10man raid buffs on stand still bosses (Gormok in ToC, or baby robot bitch in Ulduar for example) so an extra 300dps isn't going to make enough of a deal to matter to me.

I love how you question Elitist Jerks math, without any evidence what so ever that it is, indeed, a DPS increase.

99 hit? You're not aiming just for the special move hit cap, mutilate rogues should have the poison hit cap (which is 315, 237 with spriest/Imp FF, 210 with those + draenei). If you don't, gem some hit to reach it. Most rogues should have a decent chunk of hit with average gear though.

Also, there is a BiS gear list for mutilate/combat in one of the threads on EJ, if you're looking for it.

False. Been proven false.

Hit/Expertise caps are wrong in the first place. Also you cannot propose gems like you did, it's all about your gear and how much you already got. There is something like a cap for armor pen at which you should stop gemming for it for example. Also there are too many things which are connected to each other and you did not mention them like envenom refreshing your SnD up to 5 points duration and that there are three different rotations in combat depending on your gear. Another thing is that mutilate has points that you can swap depending on your stats.

All in all I can say that this is very basic and should be extended if you really feel it is necessary but there is a thread which contains everything you should know and I like to call it "the rogues bible" at EJ.

Here is a link: Pocket Guide to WOTLK (updated for 3.2) - Elitist Jerks

There is really EVERYTHING you should know except some insider tipps. You should use the spreadsheets proposed in this thread to get everything perfect as gems is a really tricky topic and you have to calculate so many things in that it is very time consuming without a proper spreadsheet. Also if you want to, try following the threads in the rogues section. They are so many good advices in these threads.

There is really no need to post such guides here. EJ already got them, you just need to read their forums. There are a few exceptions because not every class has such a huge advice topic but you should find enough to get the basics covered and your rotation running.

Well. Getting to the ArP cap is from my own personal experience quite hard as a rogue. Without Grim Toll and that other ArP trinket from Ulduar.

Elitist Jerks can be quite confusing for the newb. Too "mathy" for some.

[boazjuggalo]

I love how you question Elitist Jerks math, without any evidence what so ever that it is, indeed, a DPS increase.

Oh shite?! Is that a copy and paste from EJ?! Furthermore is that a copy and paste from Aldriana?! Does that mean that hurrka > Aldriana?!

From Aldriana's most recent QnA... http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t54257-3...ted_8_20_09_a/

Q: Which stats are good for Mutilate?
A: The simple answer would be Yellow Hit > AP = Agi > Expertise > Spell Hit > Crit > Haste > ArPen > White Hit > Strength. However, there is some minimal amount of Expertise that is necessary for cycle stability - hence, if you have low expertise on gear, you may find it worthwhile to socket some to stabilize your cycles. Additionally, ArPen generally improves in quality as you accumulate 3.2 gear; for exact details of its quality at your gear level, check a spreadsheet.

For anybody that don't know, Aldriana is a very popular Elitist poster on the rogue forums and the creater of the most accurate spreadsheet since TBC to current.

So.... as i said... If you are dodged on a mutilate your missing 2-3 combo points which could let your SnD or Rupture fall off which will kill your dps...
99 hit > 26 exp > Agi/AP

If you want to keep arguing about EJ, at least get your info correct and if you think you do, post it.

[An7hrax]

Combat
SnD at 3 CP in the start
then 5 CP Rupture
then 5 CP SnD

if SnD is over 11 sec Evis if not, SnD (if you are good you can do it as low as 7-8 sec)

KS when possible, but try and have rupture up and SnD and do it this with low energy so you don't waste it.

BFlurry as much as possible to keep the White swings swinging.

Only do ARush if you have SnD at a high value and Rupture up, i usually do 5cp*2 Evis and then SnD and continue with my regular cycle.

Mainhand: Wound (higher proc then instnat)
Offhand: Deadly

If you are engi (and you should) spam that IAS hand enchant!

[boazjuggalo]

Assassination
Open with Garrote +1 CP
HFB
SnD (uses that 1 CP, possibly procs +1 CP)
Mut till 4 CP
Envenom (rupture is tempting, but not enough time on SnD and you don't want to lose it)
Mut till 4 CP
Rup
At this point keep 4CP Envenom, 4CP Rupture over and over while keeping HFB active.

If you can't open with Garrote (ToC Anub for example)...
Stealth anyways (overpower talent is very powerful)
Mut +2-3CP
SnD
Mut till 4CP
Rup
Mut once and Envenom (don't have time for 2 or you'll lose SnD)
At this point keep 4CP Envenom, 4CP Rupture over and over while keeping HFB active.

Cooldowns:
Many people don't know this, though not as powerful as combat's BF or KS, it's still worth mentioning... Vanish!

Overkill: While stealthed, and for 20 seconds after breaking stealth, you regenerate 30% additional energy.

It's best to do then when you have at least 50 energy pooled up. It will stop your auto attack, thus lower dps for a split second, so you want to have the energy to instantly bust out with an Ambush or Garrote.

I tend to save this for one of those times when i have my 4-5 combo points but i have 3-4 secs left on my Rupture (it will fall off before another full cycle) and plenty of time on my SnD.

[huurka]

Oh shite?! Is that a copy and paste from EJ?! Furthermore is that a copy and paste from Aldriana?! Does that mean that hurrka > Aldriana?!

From Aldriana's most recent QnA... 3.2 Rogue FAQ (If you're new-ish here, read this before posting) - Updated 8/20/09 - Elitist Jerks


For anybody that don't know, Aldriana is a very popular Elitist poster on the rogue forums and the creater of the most accurate spreadsheet since TBC to current.

So.... as i said... If you are dodged on a mutilate your missing 2-3 combo points which could let your SnD or Rupture fall off which will kill your dps...
99 hit > 26 exp > Agi/AP

If you want to keep arguing about EJ, at least get your info correct and if you think you do, post it.

No it's not a copy and paste.

Read what you just quoted. It says nowhere "get 26 expertise asap".

[boazjuggalo]

Yes... I did copy and paste exact words from Aldriana..

And no, it don't say "get 26". It is EJ, it's not going to tell you whats considered common sense. If you want to get technical it don't say "get 99 hit" either, it says get yellow cap.. and 99 is yellow cap. EJ assumes you know the basics.

She does say there is some minimal amount of Expertise that is necessary for cycle stability. If you do not have 26 expertise you are NOT going to have a stable cycle. Your going to get dodged on an envenom meaning your Slice and Dice will fall off or you'll get a dodge on your mutilate not allowing you to keep a 4-5 point rupture up. Any way you look at it, without 26 exp you are gimping your entire build as a Mut rogue, you might as well be standing in front of the boss getting parried.

Either way, unless you come up with another "witty" response, I'm pretty sure this will be my last reply. You are clueless and struggling for an argument. It's pretty obvious that you read 1 or 2 posts on EJ and thought you knew everything there is to know about rogue. I can see you only have 45 posts are are probably doing this for rep. But posting a half way sensible guide that don't tell all the facts or even all of the most important facts is garbage and useless to the community.

Your guide leaves expertise off which is a huge part of rogue dps.
Your guide gave a bad combat rotation.
Your guide gave a bad mutilate rotation.

You say you've been playing a rogue since 05-06 and not pvp. You should know some basic facts about the class. No exp/hit in Cataclysm, maybe you can be a good rogue then. I created a druid back in 05-06 that is still a lvl 16 bank toon. I'm pretty sure i could pull together a guild as useful as yours of druid in no time.

It's good your making an effort to better the community. In all honesty, I'm too lazy to. But at least try to make it legit.

[huurka]

Yes... I did copy and paste exact words from Aldriana..

And no, it don't say "get 26". It is EJ, it's not going to tell you whats considered common sense. If you want to get technical it don't say "get 99 hit" either, it says get yellow cap.. and 99 is yellow cap. EJ assumes you know the basics.

She does say there is some minimal amount of Expertise that is necessary for cycle stability. If you do not have 26 expertise you are NOT going to have a stable cycle. Your going to get dodged on an envenom meaning your Slice and Dice will fall off or you'll get a dodge on your mutilate not allowing you to keep a 4-5 point rupture up. Any way you look at it, without 26 exp you are gimping your entire build as a Mut rogue, you might as well be standing in front of the boss getting parried.

Either way, unless you come up with another "witty" response, I'm pretty sure this will be my last reply. You are clueless and struggling for an argument. It's pretty obvious that you read 1 or 2 posts on EJ and thought you knew everything there is to know about rogue. I can see you only have 45 posts are are probably doing this for rep. But posting a half way sensible guide that don't tell all the facts or even all of the most important facts is garbage and useless to the community.

Your guide leaves expertise off which is a huge part of rogue dps.
Your guide gave a bad combat rotation.
Your guide gave a bad mutilate rotation.

You say you've been playing a rogue since 05-06 and not pvp. You should know some basic facts about the class. No exp/hit in Cataclysm, maybe you can be a good rogue then. I created a druid back in 05-06 that is still a lvl 16 bank toon. I'm pretty sure i could pull together a guild as useful as yours of druid in no time.

It's good your making an effort to better the community. In all honesty, I'm too lazy to. But at least try to make it legit.

But 26 expertise is not required for a stable cycle.