Memory Editing Section Call For Input

[Bananenbrot]

I don't think offsets and other fading stuff should be put into the wiki at all, they should reside here in the section's info dumps. It should be more like how to get those infos, f.e. on a page for the object management stating the possibilities for enumerating the objects, the internal structure of the object manager and maybe further down the road a step by step example of "where can I find the function, play/reverse for myself and see if I see things right" section. Much effort required though.

[Jaerin]

Awfully hostile for someone whinging about hostility...

This thread was created for people like YOU to voice your opinion and try to steer the direction of this section into what you want it to be. But whatever, if you would rather have a bitch than actually have a civil discussion on improving the section that's fine, you'll just be ignored.

Anywho...

Thank you to the rest of you for providing input without being rude. I'm seeing a lot of talk about a wiki, but I worry about who here has both the time and the knowledge to get it started and then 'moderate' it (expand content, fix incorrect content, take care of misbehaving users and vandalism, etc)... Do we have any volunteers?

Cypher I apologize.

I'm not trying to fight with you Cypher. I simply was pointing out that it was silly to be offended by being compared to a teen idol pop star when this was born out of a lack of activity in the section. This wasn't born out of people complaining because there isn't any WoW memory editing information. This was born out of a post that Apoc made in the SWTOR memory section indicating that he seemed disappointed that there was no activity in the memory editing section.

I appreciate you wanting to do something to change things around here Cypher, I really do. I hope that the attitudes of some of the people around here change and this becomes a sharing community again.

Why are people so offended by noobs asking for things anyways? Is it really so hard to ignore a question that has been asked a thousand times? What is so offensive to someone who comes here seeking knowledge directly from the active participants of the community rather than sifting through archives that may or may not be valid anymore. I'm just not sure why communities like this insist on being so hostile to the uninformed. Yes there are going to be the naive that expect every hand out, and that's what moderators are for, but someone asking for a starting point when they haven't a clue where to start? Oh wait that's right that's not what this section is about...but then you can't really complain about a lack of activity...

I would say you either need to do one of two things...if its not a section for just anyone to wander in then close it and only allow who you want in....at the very least control who posts if you don't want noob questions. If you want all levels of activity then I would suggest changing the disclaimer to say that only those with knowledge can post and how to apply.

[streppel]

@Jaerin: i think it's not about answering the same question again,but more about people not trying to find it themselves. Before i even dare to ask something here i'll search on google for at least 2 hours,to make sure it is not some stupid mistake i made and it hasn't been answered before,or at least not the way i'm trying to so it.

I don't think anyone wouldn't help a newbie if you can see that he clearly is trying to understand something new and put some efford in it.

Quote from cypher(who quoted someone else,really too lazy to look it up,it's in here too):"i don't care if i waste your time,as long as it saves mine". this clearly is the wrong attitude.

[Kalle200000]

I am not an active poster here but I read this section atleast once a day and have done it for the past 2-3 years. I read this for fun, not with a goal of making a bot/hack. I categorize myself as a newbie (especially in these context) when it comes to programmer and I have never ever tried RE. I appreciate all your work nomatter if it is a slice of some of you work or if it is an answer to a question. I enjoy reading all progress you make and problems you step into. A wiki sounds good to me even tho you can get most of the info you need by using the search, especially for basic stuffs.

I would like to say thanks to the key people of this section. Thanks for letting me reading this section even tho I dont bring anyting more then site-views for the ads.

[Jaerin]

How can you truly tell when someone has searched and when they have not? I'm not talking about the people who are asking for stupid things like "Can someone write me a bot", but instead someone who is looking for starting points and having trouble.

Maybe they don't even know where to begin. Again I understand the red disclaimer, but that's not the point. The point is that to meet anyone with valid questions with hostility or arrogance because you feel they didn't work hard enough is a bit presumptuous. Yes I understand there are those that want to do nothing for themselves and then there are the honest curious people who again would rather learn from someone, rather than giant walls of text that may or may not even be relevant to what they are talking about.

No one is forcing anyone to answer or have their time wasted, but I guarantee you that it only takes one helpful person to get someone started on a road. You can just as easily cast them off the right path forever. I don't think talent is the problem, this forum has a huge wealth of talent. I see it as a problem of attitudes and perhaps organization. If questions are getting asked a 1000 times then start a wiki or FAQ and point the people to that. But saying, "Did you take a look at the wiki or FAQ? <link>" has a very different reaction than "Did even bother searching?"

Asking questions is a great way to explore if a person is genuinely interested or maybe they just have false expectations. As I did in one post I had a couple weeks to learn and thought maybe I could do something to get started. I was immediately ridiculed for even thinking that it would be possible. That's what I'm talking about...create an atmosphere of learning and nurturing and the people will come and grow it. Maybe I couldn't learn it all in two weeks, but why shut me down from even trying?

As for people getting upset over stolen code and lack of credit...you post your code for all to see. You obviously are sharing it because you want people to at the very least see your work. Now one of the fundamental principles of programming is not reinventing the wheel and reusing code. I'm not saying that its right to steal and use code without permission, but how can you expect no one to use your work if you want people to see it. I would think it would be flattering to have people use your ideas in their projects. Again they should give credit where credit is due, but so many people let a few individuals control the flow of information. Let the community know that its stolen code and let the community punish the person. If they are doing it outside the community then there is nothing you can do...there are lots of *******s in the world, but does that mean you're going to close your door to everyone to keep those few people out?

[yossarian87]

I would like to mention that I've found this forum to be tremendously helpful. I arrived here about 4 months ago looking for information about WoW bots. My own background is that I have a ton of programming experience, and I've written several network-level bots for games such a Quake (NQ/QW/Q2/Q3) and Ultima Online, but I've never done any reverse engineering or memory hacking, and although I've played WoW for several years, I never looking into WoW bots until recently. This forum has been my primary resource for information, and there has been more than enough information to get me started.

My main problem is that the search feature of the forum sucks badly, so finding information usually consist of just reading pages and pages of threads hoping to stumble across a gem. My suggestion would be to provide a more organized index thread with links to guides that are either recent and up to date or otherwise illuminating because they cover a topic that's not well covered elsewhere. It would also be nice if the moderators went through and removed all of the posts that contribute nothing useful, such as the flaming of newbs. It would be more professional for the moderators to simply move noob question threads somewhere else so the large-egos don't feel tempted to spew hatred. That would probably clean up the forum significantly and leave only useful information for the rest of us to read.

I imagine there are a lot of people like me that don't post much but read a lot here.

[DarkLinux]

This forum really just needs an integrated wiki that anyone can update or change.

And for the people who cant find things, its called google..

site: ownedcore.com What your looging for...

That method is 100x better then the sites index...


Also if you cant find something its there... Its called time and your going to need a lot of it. Thats why I really would like to see a wiki. But I did not like the old wiki..
I really dont see why we dont have everything documented at a high standard. I think that would start the community back up. Try and document everything in wow. Not just "this is how you hook somethig" but how each function works.

And to some, program is hard. And thats how it should be lols.

[sitnspinlock]

wiki is not a good idea, it will get used for a few days maybe a week and then die. read over what I said on the first page of this thread. this forum has potential, it just simply needs to be reorganized into better sections and sub sections with proper descriptions. for instance:

each game or piece of software has it's own dump sub section dedicated to posting of information related to said piece of software.

another part of the forum would be dedicated to software reversal itself:

beginner

intermediate

advanced

you get the idea.

[Jaerin]

I agree with everdox, wiki's only work if you have several dedicated people to build it and populate it.

Without a lot of maintenance they become useless very quickly. They are good for storing already relatively organized data.

[~Unknown~]

wiki is not a good idea, it will get used for a few days maybe a week and then die. read over what I said on the first page of this thread. this forum has potential, it just simply needs to be reorganized into better sections and sub sections with proper descriptions. for instance:

Yea, I probably like this idea most. I still minor things in WoW, but I pretty much have anything I want to do so more than likely move to Diablo 3 when it comes out. It would require reorganization of all the memory editing sections most likely.

offtopic: Who's in for those Diablo3 hacks lawl?

[Cypher]

Cypher I apologize.

I'm not trying to fight with you Cypher. I simply was pointing out that it was silly to be offended by being compared to a teen idol pop star when this was born out of a lack of activity in the section. This wasn't born out of people complaining because there isn't any WoW memory editing information. This was born out of a post that Apoc made in the SWTOR memory section indicating that he seemed disappointed that there was no activity in the memory editing section.

I appreciate you wanting to do something to change things around here Cypher, I really do. I hope that the attitudes of some of the people around here change and this becomes a sharing community again.

Why are people so offended by noobs asking for things anyways? Is it really so hard to ignore a question that has been asked a thousand times? What is so offensive to someone who comes here seeking knowledge directly from the active participants of the community rather than sifting through archives that may or may not be valid anymore. I'm just not sure why communities like this insist on being so hostile to the uninformed. Yes there are going to be the naive that expect every hand out, and that's what moderators are for, but someone asking for a starting point when they haven't a clue where to start? Oh wait that's right that's not what this section is about...but then you can't really complain about a lack of activity...

I would say you either need to do one of two things...if its not a section for just anyone to wander in then close it and only allow who you want in....at the very least control who posts if you don't want noob questions. If you want all levels of activity then I would suggest changing the disclaimer to say that only those with knowledge can post and how to apply.

I would argue that we (using the collective here, but obviously I can only speak on behalf of myself) are 'offended' because like I said, this section was created with a certain 'vision' (i.e. we wanted there to be intellectual discussion that met a minimum standard) and the constant flow of "feed me offsets pl0x" destroys that. It's not so much that we're 'offended' as just frustrated.

Also, I'm personally am not complaining about a lack of activity (I'd consider more to be 'disappointment'). Ironically, it's more-so the newbies who are 'complaining' consistently. Up until now I've been of the mindset that if there's nothing to be said, then nothing needs to be said. However now that so many people have 'moved on' it seems to be the best course of action to open things up to 'pave way for a new generation' so to speak...

As for your suggestions, we don't need to lock this forum, because we already have a private forum section for the experienced hackers. More activity would be nice, however I think we need to really think about how to change the rules, because I also don't want to see this section turn into a flood of "how do i read xyz" threads where you can no longer find anything useful... Like you say, that's where the moderators come in, but there still need to be rules (e.g. "don't ask the same question that's already on the first page of the section") if there is to be accountability/order/etc. You take away rules and all hell breaks loose (a la 'Lord of the Flies').

Disclaimer: This is just me thinking out loud. I apologize if I'm being inconsistent with my position, but I simply haven't got a firm position yet. I'm still taking in what everyone is saying...

[Cypher]

How can you truly tell when someone has searched and when they have not? I'm not talking about the people who are asking for stupid things like "Can someone write me a bot", but instead someone who is looking for starting points and having trouble.

Maybe they don't even know where to begin. Again I understand the red disclaimer, but that's not the point. The point is that to meet anyone with valid questions with hostility or arrogance because you feel they didn't work hard enough is a bit presumptuous. Yes I understand there are those that want to do nothing for themselves and then there are the honest curious people who again would rather learn from someone, rather than giant walls of text that may or may not even be relevant to what they are talking about.

No one is forcing anyone to answer or have their time wasted, but I guarantee you that it only takes one helpful person to get someone started on a road. You can just as easily cast them off the right path forever. I don't think talent is the problem, this forum has a huge wealth of talent. I see it as a problem of attitudes and perhaps organization. If questions are getting asked a 1000 times then start a wiki or FAQ and point the people to that. But saying, "Did you take a look at the wiki or FAQ? <link>\" has a very different reaction than \"Did even bother searching?\"

Asking questions is a great way to explore if a person is genuinely interested or maybe they just have false expectations. As I did in one post I had a couple weeks to learn and thought maybe I could do something to get started. I was immediately ridiculed for even thinking that it would be possible. That's what I'm talking about...create an atmosphere of learning and nurturing and the people will come and grow it. Maybe I couldn't learn it all in two weeks, but why shut me down from even trying?

The 'hostility' kind of grew over time... I know it's petty, but when you're logging into the forum every day to see the same N questions from people with 1 or 2 posts who you then never see again once they've gotten what they want, it can get very frustrating very fast.

Like you said though, that obviously doesn't foster the best environment. At the same time, I have to point out, "not the goal of the section" yada yada. But that's why we're talking now, to try and fix that.

As for people getting upset over stolen code and lack of credit...you post your code for all to see. You obviously are sharing it because you want people to at the very least see your work. Now one of the fundamental principles of programming is not reinventing the wheel and reusing code. I'm not saying that its right to steal and use code without permission, but how can you expect no one to use your work if you want people to see it. I would think it would be flattering to have people use your ideas in their projects. Again they should give credit where credit is due, but so many people let a few individuals control the flow of information. Let the community know that its stolen code and let the community punish the person. If they are doing it outside the community then there is nothing you can do...there are lots of *******s in the world, but does that mean you're going to close your door to everyone to keep those few people out?

Nobody (afaik) has a problem with people using code they find here as long as it's:
a. Accredited appropriately.
b. For non-commercial use. (This one depends on the person, and normally is stipulated in the post.)

Now, point 'b' is a little sticky. Personally, I don't care any more (e.g. I know of at least one person who's using HadesMem in a commercial capacity -- I've taken and fixed bug reports from them, so as far as I'm concerned 'the system works' ), but there are lots of people who do... That's not something that needs to be discussed here and now though, that's an issue for individuals to deal with themselves.

Point 'a' is where people usually get offended. But even those situations typically get resolved by the community like you say (I hate to bring up ancient history, but the situation with JuJu comes to mind...).

It's not that people want to shut down the flow of information, it's just that it can get frustrating after a while to put days of work into something, then when you share it with the community it gets packaged into pay-cheat and helps some bottom-feeder who just copies code without contributing back to the community line their pockets.

Obviously some things are never going to get shared publicly (nobody wants their private cheat methods that they've spent weeks on to get patched), but that probably goes without saying...

[Cypher]

wiki is not a good idea, it will get used for a few days maybe a week and then die. read over what I said on the first page of this thread. this forum has potential, it just simply needs to be reorganized into better sections and sub sections with proper descriptions. for instance:

each game or piece of software has it's own dump sub section dedicated to posting of information related to said piece of software.

another part of the forum would be dedicated to software reversal itself:

beginner

intermediate

advanced

you get the idea.

Along these lines, how about something like:

General Reversing (Any reversing topics that don't fit into the other sections - e.g. OS internals, vulnerability discovery/exploitation, general anti-cheat dev/discussion, assembly tricks, etc)
Beginner (Questions by beginners, and tutorials by experienced members)
Advanced (Discussion by experienced members)

[Game Title] Reversing (One for each game, assuming there is enough interest/activity)
Beginner (Questions by beginners, and tutorials by experienced members)
Advanced (Discussion by experienced members)
Dumps (Informational dumps of offests, structure layouts, function names/call-conv/params, etc. Should be moderated to remove anything that is not purely informational. e.g. No questions asking for updated dumps. I wonder what to do about discussion that a particular dump/entry is incorrect though...)

The main problem I see though is that there seem to be 'too many' forum sections. Though, perhaps such a restructure will encourage enough new activity to make it viable. Who can really say?

[Apoc]

Along these lines, how about something like:

General Reversing (Any reversing topics that don't fit into the other sections - e.g. OS internals, vulnerability discovery/exploitation, general anti-cheat dev/discussion, assembly tricks, etc)
Beginner (Questions by beginners, and tutorials by experienced members)
Advanced (Discussion by experienced members)

[Game Title] Reversing (One for each game, assuming there is enough interest/activity)
Beginner (Questions by beginners, and tutorials by experienced members)
Advanced (Discussion by experienced members)
Dumps (Informational dumps of offests, structure layouts, function names/call-conv/params, etc. Should be moderated to remove anything that is not purely informational. e.g. No questions asking for updated dumps. I wonder what to do about discussion that a particular dump/entry is incorrect though...)

The main problem I see though is that there seem to be 'too many' forum sections. Though, perhaps such a restructure will encourage enough new activity to make it viable. Who can really say?

I think maybe 2 section total would suffice.

One for general discussion/questions/etc, and one aimed towards games specifically (with the game in the title obviously).

It seems like there's too many sections, and people won't know where their question lies. Eg; if someone asks a question about the best method to "hook" a function, would that be in beginner, or advanced? It really depends on the hooking method.

Maybe it'd be sufficient to enforce a "tag your thread or it will be deleted" type rule. So those of us tired of answering beginner questions asking the same thing, can simply ignore them. Maybe in addition to the previous, a "ensure your title explains the actual thread". Such that "I have a question..." titled threads are deleted right away without any look within the thread. However "[WoW][Beginner] Reading a player's casting speed" is not.

[Jadd]

Add a reversing forum in my opinion. Move all the current memory editing sections, as well as some new games (TERA, Diablo 3, FPS games, etc.) into it and put it at the top (under the "News" section or something). I mean, Memory Editing sections are buried in like 3 directories, I often wonder how people even manage to find this place. I don't think a wiki is really necessary, but rather some more publicity.