GDKP: Make money from raids!

[ShadowSyth]

Thought i would share this with you.

GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server
Starting a thread in here for those interested to discuss GDKP runs! On some servers, GDKP runs are very common and happen daily. On other servers, it's completely unheard of. I've constantly been surprised how many cross-server applications apply to my guild, and have never heard of them. I figured all the big servers (like Mal'ganis) have these going, but after mentioning it here, it appears they don't!

Much of this post is a consolidation of other posts I originally made in the Benefactor's Bar 3.2 thread. This thread itself was moved from the BB a few weeks after initial posting, to open it up to more discussion here. I've opted for more of a Q and A format, given the length of this post.

EJ is the perfect place for a thread like this. Because many of you are Guild Leaders, Raid Leaders, Officers, Class Leads or 'hardcore' Raiders. Many of you have a lot of gold. You likely care greatly about your character, and if you need something to make you better - you probably want it. Many players here just 'love to raid and play the game in general' and would goto these runs just to make money.

These are the sorts of players that GDKP runs thrive on having. This idea of GDKP runs isnt a hypothetical idea that 'could work if someone tried it', its something that already happens daily on some servers. (Well blackrock at least).

If you find the idea of 'buying items' offensive, try to reserve judgement until you read the whole post.

Heres the concept in a nutshell:

- GDKP stands for "Gold-DKP"
- It was a Korean concept brought to WoW
- Items which drop in your run are auctioned off in raid chat. The highest bidder receives the item and the gold they pay is added to "The Pot"
- Profession Patterns, BOE's, Crusader Orbs etc are all auctioned off in this manner as well. Everything that drops.
- The pot keeps growing in value until the end of the run
- The pot is split evenly at the end of the run to all 25 players in the raid present when the final boss dies.
- There is no mainspec > offspec priority, its gold which determines who gets items.

Who goes on these sorts of runs?

A successfull GDKP run attracts many types of players. Getting the following mix of players is crucial to the runs success:

- The 'Backbone of Geared Mains'. These are the players who just go for the gold, go for fun or because they are bored, but they dont actually want or need anything. They outgear the content and make stuff easier with their presence, by easily compensating for any undergeared players. You obviously want your runs Main-tank and select other players (main healers) to fall into this category.

- "Rich Undergeared Alts or Non-raiding Casual Mains". These players need every slot upgraded. They have cash and chances are tons of items will drop that they would be interested in buying. They could be fresh-to-80, recruit a friend levelled, 'very casual players' who never had time to get much gear, or just an alt you dusted off since hitting 80 and never did anything with since.

- "The High Rollers". These players want Death's Verdict so badly, nothing will stop them getting it. They are loaded with cash. They could be the worst geared played in your raid, in full greens and hit 80 twenty minutes ago. Or they could be the best geared player in your raid who has their eye on one special item, and ready to pay an astronomical price to get it. People like this who are prepared to spend their money, could be considered your "VIP Status" players. Make sure they are on your friends list and always offer them a private invite first when you form your raid. Treat them well.

- "Mains with specific high-priority needs". These players want one specific item. They likely already have quite good gear, probably dont need anything else, and are only coming back to the instance for something special. The types of items these players need are often trinkets: DST, IDS, Fury of the Five Flights, Grim Toll, Death's Verdict, Reign of the Unliving.

- "The Average Rollers". These players aren't necessarily rich, nor would they spend massive amounts for The Big Items, but they will happily spend gold to buy whatever takes their fancy. Their combined purchases can add up a lot over the course of the run, even if the big items like Deaths Verdict going for massive prices steal the show.

You want all of those types of players in your GDKP run. You want to avoid inviting players who are "Undergeared players who are not prepared to spend any gold". They dont bring anything of value to your successful run, they just leech off it.

What are the major benefits of GDKP in a nutshell? Is this the magic solution to everything?

I will elaborate on benefits further later in my post, but in a nutshell:

- You can make lots of money, even if items you want don't drop
- You can get items you want and still make a profit
- You have good control over your ability to get items you want (aka how much you're prepared to pay for them)
- GDKP runs attract 'mains' who don't even need the instance, because of their profitability. They stabilise the run.
- People are unlikely to leave GDKP runs early (You only get your share of the pot if you stay to the end)
- People are compelled to play better, because it's in their personal financial interests (You might get replaced and lose your pot if you're bad)
- You can get gear for your offspec, profession patterns, orbs etc with no "MS>OS" type restrictions
- GDKP runs can be quite self sustaining. Once word gets out how successful GDKP runs can be, better players will start wanting to go. Better players further increase the chances of a better run, and it's an upward spiral from there.
- It's easy to find replacements for people in successfull GDKP runs, even if you only have one boss left to kill.

Please note: GDKP is not the magic solution to 'perfect pugs'. You still could have bad players on the run. You still could have no good items drop. You still might have to compete for drops against other interested players. However, none of those points make GDKP any different than a /random PUG.

Like any successsful run: you need a good raid leader who knows how to put it together, who to invite, and how to manage your run. GDKP is no different. In fact, it's probably more important that you have a strong raid leader for these types of runs to be a success.

Are there mods for it?

Yes, like this one: GoldRaidManager - Addons - Curse

Helps raid leaders running gold pugs (gdkp). Sets minimum bid/raise for loots, do countdown, tracks and announces gold pot for each boss and the whole gold pot, and calculates and announces the gold split.
Basically you sit back and let this mod automate the process. All you have to do is trade people their item for the Gold, and manually split the pot at the end of the run.

Do people actually make money on these runs?

Yes, some runs can make a LOT of money. Some won't. Here are some examples of recent GDKP runs on Blackrock.

A typical Naxx 25 Gdkp pot lately on Blackrock will earn you a pretty small amount, maybe only 1k if you're lucky, since the gear is so outdated now. When the instance first came out it could have been 2-3k. About two months ago we made a few Ulduar 25 GDKP runs (Before toc was released and the items outdated) - they only killed a few watchers but could get ~1-2k pots from half of the instance.

On Blackrock currently, going to a GDKP TOC 25 will earn you between 3000-6000g for one hour of your time invested.

Items such as Death's Verdict in TOC, "The Big Ticket Items", can fetch between 15000 - 25000 each. Each player in the raid could receive nearly 1000 g from that item alone. Other items from old instances like Naxx might only go for 100-200g. Trophies for Tier 9 currently vary between 3000 - 6000g each on Blackrock (equating for 5 guaranteed per run: AKA Your pot might be at least 35 000 guaranteed before you even start the run, regardless of what else drops).

I hate the idea of spending gold to get items?

Put it in perspective and you might change your mind. Heres an example: Imagine for a second that you have ONE item you want from Naxx still. Would you pay 500g to get it - and never have to go back to Naxx again? Would you pay 500g to get DragonSpine Trophy if it dropped, and never have to go back again?

What if you could make 1000 gold to go on that run via the GDKP pot, and had to pay 500g of that money to guarantee you will get that item - instead of having to /random to get it. Would you do it? You would come out 500g ahead and still get the item you want. Theres nothing stupid about that. If the item didnt drop, well you just earnt 1000g for your time (instead of being on a run that earns you nothing).

Or if you have an alt you quickly wish to gear up. Dont feel like doing pugs and random to try and win drops? You would rather just spend some of your farmed-gold to quickly buy up key pieces? Splurge and get it.

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People like to put up barriers immediately when they hear "What, you pay money for items? Thats outrageous! HORRIBLE IDEA" without realising sometimes you actually could make more money overall than you actually spend etc. Big ticket items like Death's Verdict are obviously out of reach (unless you have the money). Pots can vary wildly between raids (how big the pot is depends on how much good stuff drops and what instance your doing). But as I said, a typical GDKP toc 25 pot lately here is going to earn you about 3000-5000g for your time invested on the run. People want their trophies badly! (Could be more or less depending on how many death verdict type items drop)

Would GDKP runs work on your server?

I would assume that a servers ability to do successful GDKP runs like this (and whether the server embraces it) is somewhat related to where your server fits on this list: US Realm List :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings and History

Big, busy servers have lots of progressed raid guilds. Lots of raiders who want the drops. Said raiders have lots of alts. Lots of said players are quite rich. Server itself has lots of farmers due to a very strong economy, eager to spend cash. Bigger -> more -> better, etc.

The bigger and busier your server, the more raid guilds - the better. I can't imagine many smaller quieter servers doing this as successfully, but would love to know if any do. A server like WoW Realm US-Mal'Ganis :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings and History has alot of potential for this to work.

I cant see these runs working. Pots being Ninja'd. People not trusting the Leader etc.

Once people adopt the idea, you might be surprised this is all a nonissue. If the pot is ninjaed (we're talking pots of 100 000) Blizzard GM's actually will intervene and split them to the raid from what I hear. So your money is actually safe, but its rarer than you might think for that to actually happen.

Most GDKP successful runs are by regular leaders who do it consistently, like any pug, and get a good reputation first and regular players who go weekly. If you're a strong raid leader and you know how to put a good raid together, you could quite easily do this.

Remember people are not likely to leave GDKP runs early. Would you leave the run after Twins if Death's Verdict didnt drop, if you stood to receive 5000g for being present at the Anub'arak kill? People may also less likely to be shit, since you want to finish your run! Some raid leaders will make rules such as, "If you fail too much to void zones on KT you forfeit your pot'. You probably wouldnt be surprised to know that this magically makes everyone play alot better!

I've noticed on blackrock Raid Leaders associate GDKP runs with their name closely. Nobody says "LFM GDKP Naxx". Character names are almost always used. This obviously increases trust and helps establish a relationship, especially if the runs are run often. The comments in /trade will be things like,

"LFM Gurgthock's weekly TOC GDKP Run. Pst stats/spec and amount of gold you're willing to spend"

Will it always benefit me?

It has certain benefits for characters in different situations. Using an extreme example, if your fresh-to-80 alt wants Death's Verdict and full Tier 9, and you have 200g - you simply aren't going to get any of that in a GDKP run.

You need to be smart and realistic about your expectations.

Perhaps you want to get ~4-6 easy pieces (eg wrist, libram, waist, neck) for ~1-3k g total, thats realistic. You might be prepared to spend about 4000 g to get one great item, thats realistic. You might be prepared to spend 20 000 to get Death's Verdict, again thats realistic.

Remember that although you spend gold to buy stuff, its often gold you 'would have earned anyway' just for going on the run. So you might actually come out breaking even. The net effect is your personal wealth might not change, even if you spend thousands of gold, but you also got a bunch of epic upgrades in the meantime. You win.

Theres a big distinction between 'the current content' and 'the old content' for GDKP runs. Alts actually are probably the biggest winners in a GDKP pugs for non-progression content. You can easily and very cheaply get tons of gear in an outdated instance like Naxx. Whether you need to go to GDKP or /random after that, will vary. You can use GDKP and /random runs both to your advantage. Get 'the basics' in GDKP, then move on to /random if you have no gold but want Death's Verdict type stuff.

Lets say a typical Naxx run these days (since naxx is so outdated) could get you full T7 and a couple random slots nobody needs these days (a wrist, a libram etc) for 1000g-1500, but you make 1000-1500g for going on the run.

Thats the reality of how the runs (for naxx) can be: Alts jumping from quest greens/blues to that, for no effective cost and all done in a single run. If, of course, you want to take your new-to-80 alt to TOC and get t9 pieces and chances at Deaths Verdict - its not going to work (unless you have big bucks ready!).

Gdkp is better seen as a way to quickly gear up alts using previous instances easily/fast/cheaply, or fill in spot holes for mains for specific key items you need badly (eg grim toll) in any instance, or rich characters who have the luxory and money to buy whatever the hell they want.

Its not a way for alts/mains to get the best current-progression items (eg full t9 and deaths verdict) instantly, unless you're really prepared to shell out for them. If you are prepared to shell out mega-bucks to forcibly get everything you want, the rest of the raid will love you for doing it (they get a share of the gold your paying). Think of it this way:

- If you goto a 'random roll pug' you might expect it would take you 2 weeks on average to get a desirable item, unless you get lucky on a roll. Chances are 4-6 people will roll on what you want, so if you got a desirable item in 2 weeks you are pretty lucky.
- You could goto a GDKP twice, make 8000g, and on the third run buy several items (or one big item) with 100% certainty of getting it instead, if it drops. The money you ultimately spend might seem large (WTF 5k g for a trophy?) , but its actually money you never had 2 weeks ago, and money you never would have earned if you went on a /random run instead.

Depending on your POV, its the same thing - and you could be better off with the latter. You're effectively using the time you spent on previous runs (aka the money you made) for you in future runs. That concept doesnt really exist for a true /random group. It doesnt matter if you lost the roll in the 10 previous runs, you lose again to someone who comes the first time and thats just the way it works.

Many people here wouldnt pay 5000g for a Trophy from TOC 25, but other people on your server happily would! Every single trophy for our last few weekly GDKP TOC 25 runs was eagerly snapped up for about 5k = 25 000 gold from trophies for the run alone (1000g each split at the end, before other drops) You can either go with them and try to get the item at a certain price level (obviously means you want it badly) or just go along and reap the gold benefits of other people who do instead.

I think the idea is that no single PUG system (random or gdkp) is perfect for every situation (or players needs) but both of them can have very compelling pro's.

What makes a successful GDKP run?

1 - A good leader who knows how to put it together.
2 - The 'right types of players' in the raid.

You need a healthy mix of player types I mentioned earlier. It might sound tricky to find specific types of players, but mostly this just falls into place naturally with a good raid leader handling it.

25 players in greens who have 100k each in the bank, aren't going to clear anything. 25 players in ilvl 258 gear, won't need (spend on) any upgrades. The Raid leader needs to find the balance when doing invites.

I will add that when doing /trade chat invites, many leaders will ask you to pst The amount of gold you are prepared to spend before inviting you. Not all leaders do this, but some do, "PST stats, spec and the amount of gold you're willing to spend." People can lie about their wealth? Thats why it's often required that people verify (display in trade window) they have it first, before getting an invite.

Does GDKP work for all instances?

It can, but not necesarily equally well.

TOC lends itself perfectly to GDKP because its such a short instance with no trash, and the ilvl of items is very desirable for any Ulduar/Naxx geared player. TOC also will 100% drop 5 trophies per run for T9, which all 25 people in your raid could use.

Naxx is also very good for GDKP, because it is easy and 'everyone has done the fights' and knows the instance. It obviously was much more rewarding back in its heyday.

Ulduar we found a little harder for GDKP, because alot of people hadnt done ulduar (a few months ago this is) compared to naxx and the fights are a little trickier (It was still a success, even if you only did half the instance, just had to be more careful with who you invited). I cant imagine Ulduar would be worth doing now though, after TOC is out.

It's easier and probably smarter for Alts to try a Naxx->Toc progression path with gearing, and just skipping Ulduar completely now anyway.

What challenges will I face when making a GDKP run?

Ru*** made an excellent post on page 2 of this thread elaborating on this. I will discuss it a little myself, but for further details click this link: GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server

On Blackrock, people will say things in trade chat like "LFM GDKP TOC 25, Pst stats/spec and amount of gold you're willing to spend". Nobody thinks its unusual or says anything. Other servers unfamiliar with the idea, might not react the same way till it becomes part of your server culture.

- Dealing with people who initially reject the concept, finding players who realise how it works and understand its value. (Will be harder on servers that have never done or heard of this before. The first time you mention it in trade chat, people would say "WTF Paying Gold for an item? Thats outrageous!)

- Fleshing out the raid with types of players I listed above, which is easy if you regularly lead raids - as you probably have a group of core players already to count on. This is the part where a experienced (and smart) raid leader really is needed, to help screen players and pull in the correct people likely to make the run a success in terms of ability to generate gold and players with the gear/experience needed to make the run smooth. (check gear, try to verify players if they are on alts, make sure they have vent, check achievements etc - all of that)

- Getting a mod that can handle bidding. Trading players items for gold takes a few seconds. Splitting the gold pot at the end of the run takes a few minutes. Not hard.

Summary for Raid Leaders

You need to decide what you want your run to achieve. Are you trying to make a big-earning GDKP run with a huge pot? Then be agressive about it.

People should be in those GDKP run for one of two reasons: You want to make LOTS of money, or you want to spend LOTS of money to get gear. Its the raid leaders job to put that together. Dont be shy about this fact, nor hide the fact this is about generating gold. You're not here to just get people an achievement for full clearing!

Before anyone is invited, you might require people to trade you money first in the window (not actually give it to you, just show you) to prove they have the wealth they state. Again this might seem quite personal for those unfamiliar with the concept, but people will do it.

"Ive got a friend boomkin interested who has 100 000 gold eager to come". THATS the sort of player you want to invite. Get him in ASAP! Get in more people like him, give him some equally rich competition! Encourage them on vent to bid each other up when items drop, "You cant let him have it for that price!" or "That BOE sells for 8000 g on the AH, dont let it go for 3000g!". Watch the money get raked in when the good items drop and people compete for them.

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You could alternatively make a 'more social GDKP' with more friends/guildies. These people might not spend as much, and the run will generate less gold. It might be more fun to your players and regarded as a weekly social event.

Conclusion

I will quite confidently say, if people took the plunge and tried this: and you made a decent GDKP run that cleared TOC and earnt everyone 2000-5000g each, word would get around fast. After that first run, you will find that subsequent runs get progressively easier and better. Once people hear about it, better geared players will be interested in going for the gold. Rich players with undergeared alts will wanting to go, then you start making more money. From there, it's a vicious upward spiral as you start attracting more and more desirable players.

Word of mouth and reputation is crucial to good GDKP runs. Always be as fair as possible. Be courteous and patient when explaining the GDKP concept to people who don't initially understand or embrace it. Treat the raid and its members well and with respect, even if they aren't all geared or equally skilled. Acknowledge that you will have many different geared/skilled players in your raid, ranging from "Pretty bad, undergeared players who have never done the instance' to 'Amazing, decked out players who know the instance back to front'. Some players may need more help and explanations before fights, be prepared to help them.

YOU stand to be the biggest beneficiary by doing all of this, because your runs stand to be more successful in future as a result.

Would love to hear if anyone else is planning to try this on their server and what successes (or failures) you have had! Or if people have had experiences on their server with this concept. Whether people have any questions/comments etc as well.

Got permission to spread it.

Original posted by Tyrian of ElitistJerks. GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server - Elitist Jerks

[Thidan]

UI&Macros that way -> Over here!

[ShadowSyth]

UI&Macros that way -> Over here!

What are you talkin about?

[Zirekyle]

While this seems like a fun and helpful concept, its reliance on the trustworthiness of the leader would make it really hard to do. Even in normal PUGs, you have people ninjaing items a lot. Now, you're paying them gold, as well. Especially when the pot gets so high at the end. They can play the good guy for the whole run and then run out with tens of thousands of gold at the end.

It would be cool if it worked, though.

[ShadowSyth]

While this seems like a fun and helpful concept, its reliance on the trustworthiness of the leader would make it really hard to do. Even in normal PUGs, you have people ninjaing items a lot. Now, you're paying them gold, as well. Especially when the pot gets so high at the end. They can play the good guy for the whole run and then run out with tens of thousands of gold at the end.

It would be cool if it worked, though.

If you're guildleader or member of a trusted guild, like a good high-end guild you should be trustworthy as a raid leader.

[Thidan]

What are you talkin about?

Sorry, just too damn tired to read the largest WoT in this section, perhaps ever.
Scale it down, make it a step by step process instead of making it all a story about "You want x item? You'd pay y gold for you to have it and only you in that run? Then use this method!".
Just keep it simple and clean and more people will actually read the whole thing.
And try format it instead of just quoting the whole thing...

[sid1488]

Sorry, just too damn tired to read the largest WoT in this section, perhaps ever.
Scale it down, make it a step by step process instead of making it all a story about "You want x item? You'd pay y gold for you to have it and only you in that run? Then use this method!".
Just keep it simple and clean and more people will actually read the whole thing.
And try format it instead of just quoting the whole thing...

What he said ^.

[ShadowSyth]

Sorry, just too damn tired to read the largest WoT in this section, perhaps ever.
Scale it down, make it a step by step process instead of making it all a story about "You want x item? You'd pay y gold for you to have it and only you in that run? Then use this method!".
Just keep it simple and clean and more people will actually read the whole thing.
And try format it instead of just quoting the whole thing...

Well, i didn't make it.
You could just shim it and read the basics.

[Thidan]

Well, i didn't make it.
You could just shim it and read the basics.

Just rewrite it with your own words and link to the original?
That's FAR more apreciated then just a copypasta.
Put some effort in it and you'll be far more rewarded.

[wig44]

Glory of the ulduar raider 10/25 are big earners afaik.