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[Apoc]

I'm cleaning this thread once my new PSU comes, and I have it installed. So get your kicks in now. (Keep the discussion civil, as it has been, please.)

[apollo0510]

Hi again,

I totally disagree with people who say "you also were noobs once, you also were in the same situation".

Some people think it is normal to learn coding by writing a bot or a hack. That is just wrong. I swear to god, that nobody who is seriously in the gamehacking business started that way.

We all started by learning computer languages. Most poeple here eventually started at a point where that meant to code hexnumbers on paper !

You need to know how to build a proper application, before you can break into another.

Today you need also to know about process synchronisation und memory mapping stuff.

All that is not beginners stuff. By far not.

And if somebody shows up and it looks like he can not handle the basics, he MUST be ready to get flamed.

Just my opinion.

Apollo

[Apoc]

Hi again,

I totally disagree with people who say "you also were noobs once, you also were in the same situation".

Some people think it is normal to learn coding by writing a bot or a hack. That is just wrong. I swear to god, that nobody who is seriously in the gamehacking business started that way.

We all started by learning computer languages. Most poeple here eventually started at a point where that meant to code hexnumbers on paper !

You need to know how to build a proper application, before you can break into another.

Today you need also to know about process synchronisation und memory mapping stuff.

All that is not beginners stuff. By far not.

And if somebody shows up and it looks like he can not handle the basics, he MUST be ready to get flamed.

Just my opinion.

Apollo

Well, if you're learning C++, the memory stuff is pretty basic. It's required knowledge to understand why you do something one way, over another.

But yes, I agree. I was a 'noob' at one point, but I didn't badger people to spoon feed me code. (Only time I'd ask for help, was with API questions, or stuff I just plain couldn't comprehend with the material I could find.)

[luthien23]

It's common netiquette to read the FAQ before posting questions.
This forum section has no FAQ though.

[amadmonk]

Reverse engineering is actually fairly challenging, and there are not a lot of good resources available for it.

It's fairly easy to understand pointers and simple structures in C/C++, but when you jump from that to optimized ASM or even relatively simple things like struct layouts (alignment, packing, oh joy), it can quickly become complex. Especially when you consider the fact that some information -- for instance, some vbtbl and vftbl layouts in VC++ -- is app-defined and unpublished -- it can become a rather daunting wall for a newcomer to scale.

I guess that what I'm saying is similar to what apollo is saying; hacking is actually a fairly extreme fringe of C/C++. Your "average" C++ developer has absolutely no need to know how the vbtable is laid out in a diamond inheritance pattern, but your hacker damned well better, or he's going to crash the app.

That being said, I don't personally find honest questions about reversing offensive -- a lot of the info just isn't there unless you are fortunate enough to find a mentor or have the dozens to hundreds of hours required to self-teach by looking at how various compilers lay out code (I'm not even getting into system architectures here; understanding Windows' virtual memory layout is a multi-day cramfest in itself if you're a newcomer).

However, basic "hello world" type stuff, yeah, that's annoying when the questioner clearly isn't willing to do the work. There are about a million books and websites that give C/C++ tutorials out there.

[Apoc]

Reverse engineering is actually fairly challenging, and there are not a lot of good resources available for it.

It's fairly easy to understand pointers and simple structures in C/C++, but when you jump from that to optimized ASM or even relatively simple things like struct layouts (alignment, packing, oh joy), it can quickly become complex. Especially when you consider the fact that some information -- for instance, some vbtbl and vftbl layouts in VC++ -- is app-defined and unpublished -- it can become a rather daunting wall for a newcomer to scale.

I guess that what I'm saying is similar to what apollo is saying; hacking is actually a fairly extreme fringe of C/C++. Your "average" C++ developer has absolutely no need to know how the vbtable is laid out in a diamond inheritance pattern, but your hacker damned well better, or he's going to crash the app.

That being said, I don't personally find honest questions about reversing offensive -- a lot of the info just isn't there unless you are fortunate enough to find a mentor or have the dozens to hundreds of hours required to self-teach by looking at how various compilers lay out code (I'm not even getting into system architectures here; understanding Windows' virtual memory layout is a multi-day cramfest in itself if you're a newcomer).

However, basic "hello world" type stuff, yeah, that's annoying when the questioner clearly isn't willing to do the work. There are about a million books and websites that give C/C++ tutorials out there.

Obviously the many, many idiosyncrasies in the different compilers isn't 'common knowledge' and usually does merit a question. (I.E; why the MSVC++ compiler optimizes a function one way, when the Intel compiler does it another, etc) However, understanding how an array is laid out in memory, is pretty much chapter 3-4 in any C++ book. (Or whatever chapter they go over arrays) THAT is required knowledge, no matter how you look at it.

Vtable layouts may not be 'common knowledge', but it is once you pick up any type of RE book. (I think the 'latest' chapter that explained how vtables are laid out in all the books I've read, was chapter 7 (of ~30 or so), so again, that makes it a 'basic' concept in this area of programming)

Sure, you can come here, grab some offsets, and display your position, and the position of objects around you without much 'knowledge'. But don't bother asking how to circumvent Warden, or do more advanced things without at least some basic knowledge in the field you're trying to work in. (That'd be like trying to be a supreme court judge, when you've only worked at McDonalds, with a 7th grade education. It simply won't happen.)

If you can't put the time in to learn, you don't deserve the time of anybody else who can help you. Help yourself before asking for help. (Obviously, exceptions are made for rare cases)

[Cypher]

Vtable layouts is common knowledge to any decent C++ programmer even WITHOUT reing knowledge. It's just necessary to understand why virtual function calls are slower than regular function calls.

Also, I disagree with you Apoc on having to understand low level memory management when learning C++. It's true that you need to know that stuff when learning C, but C++ is a very different language. The STL does pretty much all the work for you in that area, and vectors are nearly always a better choice than arrays.

I'm talking about general programming though. Learning C++ in order to hack games is a totally different story. You will indeed need to learn all of that low level stuff. And you'll need to learn it anyway to become a better C++ programmer, but beginners can get away without it.

At luthien. There are rules though, and those rules state to search before posting, 99% of the questions asked here are asked by people who don't follow that rule.

I also have to agree with Apollo. I know that I certainly didn't start learning to program by hacking games, that's a retarded method to choose.

[kakamunsug]

I also have to agree with Apollo. I know that I certainly didn't start learning to program by hacking games, that's a retarded method to choose.

I agree as well.
Considering most of the kids do not learn programming for one particular reason: "They don't have to" or "They don't have any use for it", when they find a reason - sure they'll barge into it like this is what programming always is used for, hacking.

But it's not, like both of you said. Starting to understand programming with hacking games as a target... idiocy.