To the PQR Community, From Soapbox

[Soapbox]

@Gabbz

As Nilrem said, and I have said before. I am not selling "code". I am not selling the features. They are just bonuses. I sell my time, and effort I put into the profiles. I am not in any way shape or form putting myself on a pedestal, by saying i put more time in to the majority, but I do. I have a full time job and on top of it i spend almost, ALMOST all of my off time tweaking and chipping away at making new profiles. To give you a idea, and this is no exaggeration by the end of today it will be 67 hours this week I have spent. So if there is any "value" that people are paying for its the fact that i have gnats ass detail in all of my profiles, again not to say nobody elses does but mine(and others) has quite a bit of extra work tied into it and it shows. You do the same? Cool. You chose to do it free? Cool. That isn't the point im making, and the "everyone's code is basically a copy of someone elses code, so you're trying to sell their work" chatter is a silly argument.

Freeware is used every single day by people in their every day jobs to make MILLIONS. You don't see people outside picketing that, and Xelper said himself that he does not GAF, it is you and a few others that are making a fuss out of it, but while you are entitled to your opinion, as am i, you can not speak for the creator of the program...He already has so don't change his words.

As for giving back..I give back plenty, i have shared quite a few things do I make a post and point fingers and myself saying "hey look i share my stuff" no. Quite literally every argument is a political battle in here as often I have found it does not really matter how much sense something makes, or how much people want it. If the person controlling it all and the few people around him simply don't like it it won't happen. So it makes the opinionated people that agree with them feel empowered like it is "the correct course of action" when all you are doing is ignoring all the people you see that are OKAY with it and only pay attention to those in your group that oppose it.

[nilrem2004]

I agree, I mean look at the real world for a change, there are many free applications out there and people still charge to make "addons" or "profiles" for it. Wordpress is free, but go hire a company to make you a wordpress site and then ask why do they charge for it. Because they invest their time to make customisations and develop new templates. Hell even linux is free but there are distributions that are charged for and hire an expert to waste his time to make you an installation on a server and then ask him why he charges for it when linux is free. Right. I support "ideal" world but as long as I have to pay for food, drink, water, electricity, gasoline etc. etc. I surely won't make my time and knowledge free. Untill then like soapbox said and our dear goblin friends say "time is money friend".

[Gabbz]

@ Soap & Nilrem

I dont disagree with you. If you feel that you need to get compensated for your time its up to you.
I have no problem with it. But not here. Not on this forum.
I said it earlier and think some more people said the same. Ask the mods to make a new forum for paid profiles.

So tbh we arnt discussing whats wrong and right here. Its Xelpers program and he said it himself that he dont mind people is getting paid for making profiles.
And i dont think OC mods are saying you arnt allowed to get money for your profiles but do it at the right forum.
And i seen your site Soap. It was rather nice and with nice layout etc etc . What happened with that ?

So i dont understand the problem here tbh. Its been working last months or so, so whats happened?

[Soapbox]

@ Soap & Nilrem

I dont disagree with you. If you feel that you need to get compensated for your time its up to you.
I have no problem with it. But not here. Not on this forum.
I said it earlier and think some more people said the same. Ask the mods to make a new forum for paid profiles.

So tbh we arnt discussing whats wrong and right here. Its Xelpers program and he said it himself that he dont mind people is getting paid for making profiles.
And i dont think OC mods are saying you arnt allowed to get money for your profiles but do it at the right forum.
And i seen your site Soap. It was rather nice and with nice layout etc etc . What happened with that ?

So i dont understand the problem here tbh. Its been working last months or so, so whats happened?

All i wanted was the division to stop. there are a few who are going out of their way to segregate us, and it would be nice to have a sub-forum where people who choose to pay for profiles can go get access to them and support instead of having to dig through trade or bookmarks/history. Its just easier.

Edit: my site is still up, we just can no longer provide any links to non-commercial sites on the OC forums.

[Aegeus]

so whats happened?

I have no problem with people wanting a return for their time spent, but to answer your question Gabbz, people get greedy. It's human nature.

[Soapbox]

I have no problem with people wanting a return for their time spent, but to answer your question Gabbz, people get greedy. It's human nature.

That comment goes both ways, if that's how you intended it then great. If not, think about what you are saying for a second.

[froggystyle]

as a person who supports the custom Files .. i wish there was a sub form for PQR in general like the interface / profiles / Bitching / broke up in a few subforms from that but that would just mean more work for the current mods ..

[vitalic]

Paid profiles are unethical. If you released the source code to your profiles so other people could learn from what you have done, but still asked for donations then that would be fine. A mandatory donation however is not a donation, it's a fee or a subscription: don't try and make it sound ethical by calling it a donation, that is a deceptive business practice.

You may think you are justified in your actions but I'm informing you that what you are doing causes direct harm to the community. I also suspect that these practices would draw the software to Blizzard's attention even more so, as it is well established that they dislike people making money off the back of their games, and are more likely to want to stamp it out as a result.

Unless you are affording people the essential freedoms that they deserve (especially when you are writing extensions to free software), that is: the freedom to read the source code, the freedom to share copies, the freedom to manipulate the source code and distribute their own modified versions and so on, then you are subjugating those users by making them dependent on your work. Without access to a readable form of the source code there is also a risk that you could include malicious features or features that put the user at risk.

And furthermore, anyone supporting these paid profile authors are just as bad as the authors themselves, because you are accepting that it's legitimate for people to take this approach and by extension encouraging other authors who have previously released their profiles gratis to do the same, which harms the community even more and creates the potential for a downward spiral towards a situation where the base program is free but all the good profiles are fee/subscription based and deny the users of their essential freedoms.

[nilrem2004]

Talking about ethics and using a software that directly violates Blizzard policies as the software itself is actually a hack is what you talk about? Whoever thinks paying for someone's time is wrong should start mashing buttons instead using a hack to play the game. There is no grey area here, it's either black or white, you cannot support a hack and then be against something that involves that same hack, when the wrong is done by hack itself in the first place. Talking about double standards.....

[Soapbox]

Paid profiles are unethical. If you released the source code to your profiles so other people could learn from what you have done, but still asked for donations then that would be fine. A mandatory donation however is not a donation, it's a fee or a subscription: don't try and make it sound ethical by calling it a donation, that is a deceptive business practice.

You may think you are justified in your actions but I'm informing you that what you are doing causes direct harm to the community. I also suspect that these practices would draw the software to Blizzard's attention even more so, as it is well established that they dislike people making money off the back of their games, and are more likely to want to stamp it out as a result.

Unless you are affording people the essential freedoms that they deserve (especially when you are writing extensions to free software), that is: the freedom to read the source code, the freedom to share copies, the freedom to manipulate the source code and distribute their own modified versions and so on, then you are subjugating those users by making them dependent on your work. Without access to a readable form of the source code there is also a risk that you could include malicious features or features that put the user at risk.

And furthermore, anyone supporting these paid profile authors are just as bad as the authors themselves, because you are accepting that it's legitimate for people to take this approach and by extension encouraging other authors who have previously released their profiles gratis to do the same, which harms the community even more and creates the potential for a downward spiral towards a situation where the base program is free but all the good profiles are fee/subscription based and deny the users of their essential freedoms.

Unethical? Being a little dramatic are we? Also take note that the word "donation" that you are disputing is being used in the exact same context do be a "Donator" on these forums. It is what it is, at the end of the day it is a word.

The only thing your post really enforces is that people should give their work away free. You post is completely opinionated, one sided. You post is VERY farfetched, dramatic and to be honest quite ignorant.

Malicious code? Really dude... I can entertain a lot of the other posts on here but yours is nothing but you trying to distort your own opinion into fact. Not happening.

[Soapbox]

Talking about double standards.....

I was really surprised by that post as well lol. Almosts reminded me of failroad with the "I know it all and my opinions are facts supported by imaginary science" attitude :/

[crystal_tech]

My Profiles will be free, but I have taken donations for the profiles, but its the same profile. not a Elite version and a free version. thats the disconnect in the community. Yes time and work goes into making profiles. Hell all i see anymore is logs. But to the Point, to develop a free profile then have other profile writers take major parts of the code and then lock it away in a paid profile (some/most not giving credit for the peps that gave the code out in the first place) is what ticks me off. I'm Not saying that Soapbox has done that, but thats one of the issues.


thats my ramble.

[vitalic]

Talking about ethics and using a software that directly violates Blizzard policies as the software itself is actually a hack is what you talk about? Whoever thinks paying for someone's time is wrong should start mashing buttons instead using a hack to play the game. There is no grey area here, it's either black or white, you cannot support a hack and then be against something that involves that same hack, when the wrong is done by hack itself in the first place. Talking about double standards.....

I'm not a user of the software since I quit WoW a while back, so I don't particularly care whether the software itself is unethical, which it may well be as it gives players an unfair advantage. I'm talking specifically about the practice of demanding mandatory donations to use an extension of a piece of free software (and by free I mean free as in freedom). To claim there is a double standard in play is to not understand the issue at hand.

Unethical? Being a little dramatic are we? Also take note that the word "donation" that you are disputing is being used in the exact same context do be a "Donator" on these forums. It is what it is, at the end of the day it is a word.

The only thing your post really enforces is that people should give their work away free. You post is completely opinionated, one sided. You post is VERY farfetched, dramatic and to be honest quite ignorant.

Malicious code? Really dude... I can entertain a lot of the other posts on here but yours is nothing but you trying to distort your own opinion into fact. Not happening.

I have nothing against people making money from their time investment, but it should not be done in a way which subjugates the user and harms the community.

There are plenty of ways you could make money from your profile writing, for example by charging individual users for developing and adding features that they might want included in the profile, those features could then be merged into the public release to benefit all users of the profile, while providing additional benefits to the community in terms of sharing code and ideas.

Comparing it to the forum donation scheme is erroneous, because you can still use all of the forum's basic features without paying for a subscription, whereas you deny access to your profiles completely until someone pays a subscription fee.

The original author of the software might not object to these practices, but that doesn't mean it can't still be unethical. For the reasons I have listed previously, and because it increases the likelihood of Blizzard taking steps to prohibit usage of the software (which would affect all users), this is both a selfish and exploitative practice.

[Soapbox]

I'm not a user of the software since I quit WoW a while back, so I don't particularly care whether the software itself is unethical, which it may well be as it gives players an unfair advantage. I'm talking specifically about the practice of demanding mandatory donations to use an extension of a piece of free software (and by free I mean free as in freedom). To claim there is a double standard in play is to not understand the issue at hand.



I have nothing against people making money from their time investment, but it should not be done in a way which subjugates the user and harms the community.

There are plenty of ways you could make money from your profile writing, for example by charging individual users for developing and adding features that they might want included in the profile, those features could then be merged into the public release to benefit all users of the profile, while providing additional benefits to the community in terms of sharing code and ideas.

Comparing it to the forum donation scheme is erroneous, because you can still use all of the forum's basic features without paying for a subscription, whereas you deny access to your profiles completely until someone pays a subscription fee.

The original author of the software might not object to these practices, but that doesn't mean it can't still be unethical. For the reasons I have listed previously, and because it increases the likelihood of Blizzard taking steps to prohibit usage of the software (which would affect all users), this is both a selfish and exploitative practice.

People have access to the free profiles. they have the option to pay for the others if they do so please. I have to pay in order to put links in my signature amongst other things. So no, it is not "erronous" its spot on.

It does not harm the community at all. In fact, the only thing affeting it is the mentality that YOU bring. I am not forcing anyone to buy anything, you do realize that right? You do realize all of these people do it out of their own free will AND (based on like 75% of my stuff is returning customers) they are VERY pleased with what they get. Simple as that, if you want it for free then go put all of the time and detail into it yourself, and unless you have already done that, then all you are bringing to this is a VERY narrow minded opinion.

[Ninjaderp]

Vitalic, I have a hard time seeing how paid profiles would affect the community negatively. Could you ellaborate a little on that?

Because since more ppl have arrived here and started to make profiles you can pay for, I've noticed the quality of all profiles released has just become better wether free or paid. I really think a new paid profile-section would benefit the community in large and give people more options as well.