[Guide] Rogue PvE advice

[[the Sills]]

Hello. This is a nice advice mini-guide I found on the official WoW forums.
I haven't made this, i just want to share this with you.


The Specs:

Significant buffs to the Mutilate tree. Mutilate already scaled better than combat on single-target, murderable mobs. Now it will scale better regardless. Mutilate was beating combat on the PTR by anywhere from 10-20%.

Mutilate will follow some variation of 51/18/2. If you're using Rupture you'll keep 2 points in Blood Spatter, and if you're not you can move those to Fleet Footed. The latter looks something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


Combat will now be following a form of 20/51/0. Depending on your weapons used, you'll shift points in the various weapon specializations, but generally it will be the same. The 5 points in Relentless Strikes will be moved to Improved Poisons and Vile Poisons. The following build is for a Ruptureless Hack and Slash spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


The Gems:

Gemming will be similar for both classes. In general:
Red slots: Attack Power
Yellow Slots: Attack Power + Haste
Blue Slots: Attack Power (with one Nightmare Tear in the piece with the highest bonus)

I repeat, that is general advice and you should still consult a spreadsheet before spending lots of gold on gems:
Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Updated for 3.3) - Elitist Jerks

The Poisons:
Again, if you're using Vile poisons and Improved Poisons similar to the above specs, your only options for poisons (regardless of the talent spec) are:

MH: Instant Poison
OH: Deadly Poison
In recap: Mutilate/Poisons are getting a significant buff (remember Blizzard saying they wanted Rogues using daggers). So significant that even in fights with multiple mobs and burn phases, it's performing ahead of combat. If the trends continue, I'd expect either a slight nerf or another buff to Combat.

I'd put my money on the former, as Mutilate rogues were outperforming every pure DPS class on the PTR. However, I could see a buff to Savage Combat to continue to give Combat Rogues utility in raids (4/8% up from 2/4% or something).



My Rotation

1. Garrote (Sometimes it can be wiser to skip this)

2. Hunger for blood

3. Slice and dice (1-4 combo points, doesnt matter since you got the refresh)

4. Muti til' 4 combo points

5. Envenom

6. Repeat from 4 (Dont use envenom again before the buff goes out, this will lower your dps (Called envenom clipping) (Thanks Toddy123) .

Originally Posted by Wolv
Great info, just a little from my experience to add to this.

Party/Raid makeup will dictate the opener often. Since there are multiple classes that apply bleeds as openers you can usually start with HfB. Even with no one else applying the bleeds I've found it more effective to not even bother stealthing and doing this sequence...
1- Mut
2- Rupture (if none to apply bleed)
3- HfB
4- SnD x 1
5- Envenom

Then settle into a cycle of Mut *3 or 4 - Envenom... Keep HfB up, use a bonus point you will often get from the Envenoms to add an rupture as needed unless another class is adding a bleed.

Generally speaking I usually never have to add a combo point from 2-5 as they keep adding themselves via the spec, toss in a Mut as needed. I used to Garrote but found I lost DPS since its a 50 energy skill. I like to get going on melee as fast as possible.

As far as gems there seems to be the never ending war of those that still favor Agi > AP. The trick isn't always to gem for what you are wearing right this second but rather what you 'will be' wearing in a short time to reduce having to swap gems out.

Remember theory crafting only goes so far. Ultimately your play style and latency can greatly effect what the best way to do this is for you. There are a ton of rogue information sites out there, shadowpanthers is a good one for those starting off as well.

Good luck.

Envenom addon : http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...nvenomous.aspx
This guide helped me alot on what to do as a rogue. Tell me what you think.

[JethroXL]

You people are going to force my hand and make me write a guide that is actually accurate for current content, aren't you?

And I was having such a fine time nitpicking and leeching. *sigh*

[Wolv]

Great info, just a little from my experience to add to this.

Party/Raid makeup will dictate the opener often. Since there are multiple classes that apply bleeds as openers you can usually start with HfB. Even with no one else applying the bleeds I've found it more effective to not even bother stealthing and doing this sequence...
1- Mut
2- Rupture (if none to apply bleed)
3- HfB
4- SnD x 1
5- Envenom

Then settle into a cycle of Mut *3 or 4 - Envenom... Keep HfB up, use a bonus point you will often get from the Envenoms to add an rupture as needed unless another class is adding a bleed.

Generally speaking I usually never have to add a combo point from 2-5 as they keep adding themselves via the spec, toss in a Mut as needed. I used to Garrote but found I lost DPS since its a 50 energy skill. I like to get going on melee as fast as possible.

As far as gems there seems to be the never ending war of those that still favor Agi > AP. The trick isn't always to gem for what you are wearing right this second but rather what you 'will be' wearing in a short time to reduce having to swap gems out.

Remember theory crafting only goes so far. Ultimately your play style and latency can greatly effect what the best way to do this is for you. There are a ton of rogue information sites out there, shadowpanthers is a good one for those starting off as well.

Good luck.

[[the Sills]]

Great info, just a little from my experience to add to this.

Party/Raid makeup will dictate the opener often. Since there are multiple classes that apply bleeds as openers you can usually start with HfB. Even with no one else applying the bleeds I've found it more effective to not even bother stealthing and doing this sequence...
1- Mut
2- Rupture (if none to apply bleed)
3- HfB
4- SnD x 1
5- Envenom

Then settle into a cycle of Mut *3 or 4 - Envenom... Keep HfB up, use a bonus point you will often get from the Envenoms to add an rupture as needed unless another class is adding a bleed.

Generally speaking I usually never have to add a combo point from 2-5 as they keep adding themselves via the spec, toss in a Mut as needed. I used to Garrote but found I lost DPS since its a 50 energy skill. I like to get going on melee as fast as possible.

As far as gems there seems to be the never ending war of those that still favor Agi > AP. The trick isn't always to gem for what you are wearing right this second but rather what you 'will be' wearing in a short time to reduce having to swap gems out.

Remember theory crafting only goes so far. Ultimately your play style and latency can greatly effect what the best way to do this is for you. There are a ton of rogue information sites out there, shadowpanthers is a good one for those starting off as well.

Good luck.

Thank you for your nice reply and good information. I will add your text to the thread.

[giorgi]

attackpower gems are outdated arp(combat only) is the way to go, even with the new rupture changes running on ruptureless combat wil be better

[toddy123]

TheSills you seem to be forgetting about the Envenom buff you get from using Envenom.

"Chance to apply Deadly Poison increased by 15% and frequency of applying Instant Poison increased by 75%."

Using a timer addon you should pool your energy close to 80 then let the Envenom buff drop off before Envenoming again.

If you Envenom too soon you cause this thing called Envenom Clipping causing a dps loss.

As for gemming Mutilate, you will use AP in the red sockets, AP/haste in the yellow sockets and a Nightmare tear for your meta. At higher gear levels you will gem straight Haste in the yellow sockets.

As for gemming Combat, Yes Arp is the way to go in the red sockets, but as you start getting ICC 25 Gear you will start running into crit cap issues since the gear lacks hit and has huge amounts of crit. you will start gemming ap/hit gem in the yellow sockets, then as you get higher icc gear you will gem straight HIT so crit isnt pushed off your hit table. Again use a spreadsheet.

[[the Sills]]

Thank you for your nice reply and good information. I will add your text to the thread.

TheSills you seem to be forgetting about the Envenom buff you get from using Envenom.

"Chance to apply Deadly Poison increased by 15% and frequency of applying Instant Poison increased by 75%."

Using a timer addon you should pool your energy close to 80 then let the Envenom buff drop off before Envenoming again.

If you Envenom too soon you cause this thing called Envenom Clipping causing a dps loss.

As for gemming Mutilate, you will use AP in the red sockets, AP/haste in the yellow sockets and a Nightmare tear for your meta. At higher gear levels you will gem straight Haste in the yellow sockets.

As for gemming Combat, Yes Arp is the way to go in the red sockets, but as you start getting ICC 25 Gear you will start running into crit cap issues since the gear lacks hit and has huge amounts of crit. you will start gemming ap/hit gem in the yellow sockets, then as you get higher icc gear you will gem straight HIT so crit isnt pushed off your hit table. Again use a spreadsheet.

Thank you for your knowledge, I agree with your reply. I havent been 80 on my rogue for to long so I had no idea about this with Envenom. Thank you.

[iroh123]

this is good ty

[sammiboy]

TheSills you seem to be forgetting about the Envenom buff you get from using Envenom.

"Chance to apply Deadly Poison increased by 15% and frequency of applying Instant Poison increased by 75%."

Using a timer addon you should pool your energy close to 80 then let the Envenom buff drop off before Envenoming again.

Indeed 'bout the timer addon, here is the one I use; Envenomous - Addons - Curse

But to achieve highest dps, you should try and never let the envenom buff drop - Refresh at ~0.4sec, according to most spreadsheets.

[DKKLC]

This guide is very, very outdated...please don't follow it.

[DKKLC]

Great info, just a little from my experience to add to this.

Party/Raid makeup will dictate the opener often. Since there are multiple classes that apply bleeds as openers you can usually start with HfB. Even with no one else applying the bleeds I've found it more effective to not even bother stealthing and doing this sequence...
1- Mut
2- Rupture (if none to apply bleed)
3- HfB
4- SnD x 1
5- Envenom.

That sequence is a bad opening sequence because you are starting out of stealth, meaning you are starting without overkill, which is absolutely silly. As mutilate, always start in stealth when possible. And vanish often.

[[the Sills]]

That sequence is a bad opening sequence because you are starting out of stealth, meaning you are starting without overkill, which is absolutely silly. As mutilate, always start in stealth when possible. And vanish often.

Agree, overkill is very effective. Thank you Sammi for the addon link. Will add it to the thread aswell.

[Wolv]

That sequence is a bad opening sequence because you are starting out of stealth, meaning you are starting without overkill, which is absolutely silly. As mutilate, always start in stealth when possible. And vanish often.

'when possible' I'd agree with, but most of the time it is about speed to get to the target and start dps. Your dps will be higher if you get the prepare time and you're stealthed. 95% of the pulls anymore are near a running pace from heroics - icc and if you're stealthed you won't start dps'n as quick unless your group is slow movers. Again this is where theorycraft and real world don't mesh, at least for me.

One add to the vanish often, try to do it while you have enough energy to special attack immediately after it or you'll waste too much time again between dps. This is a great one to macro so you can button spam it.

[DKKLC]

'when possible' I'd agree with, but most of the time it is about speed to get to the target and start dps. Your dps will be higher if you get the prepare time and you're stealthed. 95% of the pulls anymore are near a running pace from heroics - icc and if you're stealthed you won't start dps'n as quick unless your group is slow movers. Again this is where theorycraft and real world don't mesh, at least for me.

One add to the vanish often, try to do it while you have enough energy to special attack immediately after it or you'll waste too much time again between dps. This is a great one to macro so you can button spam it.

The only fights in ICC that I'm not able to start stealthed in is Sindragosa (for the first pull of it only, really), Gunship (as theres no real benefit), and Dreamwalker (from dealing with adds on entering combat)
And I've done and killed every fight in this game except for heroic putricide 25, and heroic LK 25, so it's not like I'm missing something there, sorry. Opening outside of stealth is a waste if you are mutilate, even if you start 5 seconds later, due to the advantage of having overkills energy regeneration.
It's an absolutely pitiful example of when theorycrafting and the real world don't mesh, because they mesh perfectly well in that regard.

Second, you're wrong on when to vanish. Vanish when you'll expended your energy as low as possible, and whiteswing yourself out immediately, which will land faster than a special anyway, due to haste. If you find yourself slow with that, use a startattack macro, but pooling energy so you can opener-spam your way out of vanish is a waste of energy returns.

[Wolv]

The only fights in ICC that I'm not able to start stealthed in is Sindragosa (for the first pull of it only, really), Gunship (as theres no real benefit), and Dreamwalker (from dealing with adds on entering combat)
And I've done and killed every fight in this game except for heroic putricide 25, and heroic LK 25, so it's not like I'm missing something there, sorry. Opening outside of stealth is a waste if you are mutilate, even if you start 5 seconds later, due to the advantage of having overkills energy regeneration.
It's an absolutely pitiful example of when theorycrafting and the real world don't mesh, because they mesh perfectly well in that regard.

Second, you're wrong on when to vanish. Vanish when you'll expended your energy as low as possible, and whiteswing yourself out immediately, which will land faster than a special anyway, due to haste. If you find yourself slow with that, use a startattack macro, but pooling energy so you can opener-spam your way out of vanish is a waste of energy returns.

What is 5 seconds... It's this... Rogues gen 10 energy per sec. Overkill gives 30% additional energy over 20 seconds.

Since you gave me the 5 seconds of combat prior to you starting I'll use those numbers.

25 sec (20+5) * 10 energy = 250 energy

20 sec (I started combat 5 sec before you) * 13 energy (10 * +30%= 13) = 260 energy

At the end of the 25 seconds we are even again and fight proceeds as normal. So you wasted 5 seconds of combat for 10 energy, I'll let you run your on damage numbers but I can tell you what won. Run a simcraft with your own gear and let me know how it parses out.

Given the choice would I want to start in stealth assuming I didn't loose much combat time, as said ABSOLUTELY but will the world cease if I don't- hardly. Reality is in those 5 seconds I likely had at least one more extra combo points awarded.

Never said pool energy, said use vanish to your advantage so you can minimize downtime while still using specials. Drop all the way to zero as outlined above you are not maximizing dps.

I used to think exactly as you did until I kept getting smoked by another rogue on every raid whom was very closely geared. Then I found out how he was puling away from me over the course of the night. We are doing nearly the exact same thing as you all killing time till Cata.

Most of what we do is how lucky we get on the rolls, there is still significant RNG involved. No one way will always win just as there are no one way of dps.

So in a nutshell I'll agree to disagree.

-PS This is my last post on this thread, I just wanted to add my perspective. GL to you all.