Death Knight Grading Scale, for Group Leaders

[Dankone]

Since you can't run a pug these days without getting 100 tells from Death Knights, I've compiled a set of questions to tell apart the good ones from the ones who shouldn't get an invite. I have made this guide because I know that many leaders are frustrated over how inflated the Death Knight class is with bad players, but can't weed out the good ones because of a lack of knowledge of the class.

Point values are denoted in [brackets]. If the question returns true, then points are added. If false, there is no point change (Hence, higher scores are worse).

First: Things that can be decided by armory:

TALENTS
[5] Does the player have more than 60 points in any one tree?
[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a PvE DPS build (Subtract point value for every talent included)? (Scent of Blood, Vendetta, Blade Barrier, Bloodworms, Icy Reach, Toughness, Chilblains, Unholy Command, Outbreak, Improved Rune Tap*)
[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a tanking build (Add two for every talent included)? (Vendetta, Bloodworms, Chilblains)
*EXCEPTION: 21/50/0 build or close variant
[5] Is the player blood without at least 1/2 ilvl 213 epics?

GEAR/GEMS
[1] Gems should never include (for PvE DPS) blue stamina gems, ArP gems, haste gems, agility gems, resilience gems, spell penetration gems, any spell caster gems, etc. Rack a point for each inappropriate gem.
[Dear Lord, why are you still thinking about inviting him?] Does the player have spell power gear?
[5] Is the player gemming for things other than hit when they are not at the hit cap (8%)? Hybrid gems are fine if they have hit (purple gems don't count against the DK), but if a person is using, for example, crit rating gems instead of hit rating gems, rack up 5 points. Expertise is also important for strike-heavy builds like blood, but not as important for unholy. The expertise cap is 26.
[3] Does the player have an appropriate enchant? It's Swordshattering or Stoneskin Gargoyle for tanks, and ONLY Fallen Crusader for DPS. Cinderglacier or Razorice? Rack up points. (EXCEPTION: Dual Wielding DKs should have Fallen Crusader in their MH, but it is disputed at the moment whether Cinderglacier or Fallen Crusader is better for the offhand. It is clear, however, that Razorice is best for the OH if you're running with FFB mages or frost DKs).
[5] Is your tank DWing? Dual Wielding facilitates parry hasting on bosses, and it a very poor choice.

And now, for some things that cannot be determined by Armory:

PLAYING (General)
[2] Does your DK DPS not use Death Grip to do things such as bringing a caster into a tank's AOE, or geting a mob off of the healer/ranged?
[4] Is your DK DPS not using Strangulate/Mind Freeze to assist in interrupting spell casts?
[3] Does your DK tank not regularly use cooldowns such as Icebound Fortitude and/or Vampiric Blood?
[5] Does your DK DPS open up with Death and Decay on a single target?
[5] Does your DK DPS or Tank know how to Raise Dead/Death Pact in a pinch?
[5] Does your DK not use diseases? (51/0/20 diseaseless spec exempt)

PLAYING (Blood)
[3] Does he use DRW at <100 RP?
[3] Does he not use Mark of Blood at strategic moments?

PLAYING (Frost)
[3] Does your frost DK use Howling Blast without frost fever on the target?
[4] Does he use HB even when there are CC'd targets in the area?
[3] When AoEing, does he HB without using pestilence first?
[2] Does he not realize that Obliterate is best for single target unless Killing Machine is up?

PLAYING (Unholy)
[5] Does your Unholy DK use Obliterate?
[5] Does your Unholy DK not have Unholy Aura? If he does not, ask him why. If he thinks it is a bad talent, rack up 5 points. It is fine if he does not have it because his guild has another regular raiding UH death knight with Unholy Aura
[5] Is Gnaw on auto-cast?
[3] Does he not know how to use his ghoul well, getting him to the focused targets and not leaving him attacking something random?
[4] Does he break CC with Unholy Blight?
[3] Does his Gargoyle go away prematurely?


As a general rule, if a DK is scoring 15+ points, you're better off waiting for better to come along. Hopefully someone will find this of some use. Point values may need some tweaking to be more realistic.

[Chickensoup]

Did you write this yourself?

[Dankone]

Did you write this yourself?

What do you think? Google phrases if you don't believe me.

[Chickensoup]

Well, I obviously didn't know if I asked..

[jables]

Well written, you know the class. One thing I would argue though is that Unholy aura can be useless if you know that you are running with other Unholy DK's. (probably irrelevant considering this is about pugging so there would be no planning.)

Oh and please exempt 0/32/39 or any close variations from the 60+ points in one tree rating. It is the only successful hybrid at the moment. You can also take off points if they have sub naxx25 gear and are blood. Blood is heavily gear dependent.

[Dankone]

Well written, you know the class. One thing I would argue though is that Unholy aura can be useless if you know that you are running with other Unholy DK's. (probably irrelevant considering this is about pugging so there would be no planning.)

Oh and please exempt 0/32/39 or any close variations from the 60+ points in one tree rating. It is the only successful hybrid at the moment. You can also take off points if they have sub naxx25 gear and are blood. Blood is heavily gear dependent.

You only add points if a player has more than 60 points in a single tree, so 32/39 is fine. And yes, I was thinking about blood as I was writing but it slipped my mind. Thanks

[Zankoku]

Nice start of a grading scale, +rep.

Would like to see more diversification between tank VS dps

Consider adding Tree specific abilities (like you did with Unholy Aura) into the scale, e.g. Does your Unholy DK keep Bone Shield up/pre-cast? (2% dmg increase and mitigation)


Adding in Ghoul questions for Unholy would be a good idea also, or any build that picks up Master of Ghouls, e.g. Does he properly setup his Ghoul? Does he control his Ghoul properly? (AutoCast stuning on bosses = bad)





This guide has the potential for greatness in weeding out the bads. Ran into alot on my server, esp the sub-1500 dps DKs

[Dielord]

[5] Is the player gemming for things other than hit/expertise when they are not at the hit/expertise cap (8% and 6.5% reduction to dodge/parry, respecticvely)?

Expertise gemming ? o.O Str>Expertise.

[Forever]

Expertise gemming ? o.O Str>Expertise.

+5 points.

[Bon]

Jesus christ your clueless.



[5] Does the player have more than 60 points in any one tree?

You can easily use 60 points in unholy and still have a viable DPS build.




[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a PvE DPS build (Subtract point value for every talent included)? (Scent of Blood, Vendetta, Blade Barrier, Bloodworms, Icy Reach, Toughness, Chilblains, Unholy Command, Outbreak, Improved Rune Tap*)

Icy reach, Toughness, chilbains, and improved runetap are all perfectly acceptable to take dependent on builds.




[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a tanking build (Add two for every talent included)? (Vendetta, Bloodworms, Chilblains)

Bloodworms in a tanking build are acceptable.




[5] Is the player blood without at least 1/2 ilvl 213 epics?

I just dont get this, you obviously miss the other utility blood brings even if his gear isnt as good.



GEAR/GEMS
[1] Gems should never include (for PvE DPS) blue stamina gems, ArP gems, haste gems, agility gems, resilience gems, spell penetration gems, any spell caster gems, etc. Rack a point for each inappropriate gem.

What about hybrid gems for meta requirements?




[10] Does the player have spell power gear? Add ten per piece with SpP on it.

Finally something you got right




[5] Is the player gemming for things other than hit/expertise when they are not at the hit/expertise cap (8% and 6.5% reduction to dodge/parry, respecticvely)? Hybrid gems are fine if they have at least one of the relevant stats, but if a person is using, for example, crit rating gems instead of hit rating gems, rack up 5 points.

I often trade off my hit gear for other gear and use foodbuffs to make up the difference.




[3] Does the player have an appropriate enchant? It's Swordshattering or Stoneskin Gargoyle for tanks, and ONLY Fallen Crusader for DPS. Cinderglacier or Razorice? Rack up points.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong, Cinderglacier and Razorice are often used in a DW build.




[5] Is your tank DWing? Dual Wielding facilitates parry hasting on bosses, and it a very poor choice.

For non raid bosses, DW tanks can do fine.



And now, for some things that cannot be determined by Armory:

PLAYING
[2] Does your DK DPS not use Death Grip to do things such as bringing a caster into a tank's AOE, or geting a mob off of the healer/ranged?

Ok, but if I dk is having to do this then your group is shit anyway.



[4] Is your DK DPS not using Strangulate/Mind Freeze to assist in interrupting spell casts?

Why waste time interupting in Heroics?




[3] Does your DK tank not regularly use cooldowns such as Icebound Fortitude and/or Vampiric Blood?

Unless your DK tank and/or healer is totally shit geared, they wont need to use cooldowns.




[5] Does your DK DPS open up with Death and Decay on a single target?

Fair point




[5] Does your DK DPS or Tank know how to Raise Dead/Death Pact in a pinch?

Heroics cause problems? Maybe if you have the IQ of a brick.




[5] Does your Unholy DK use Obliterate?

Ok



[5] Does your DK not use diseases? (51/0/20 diseaseless spec exempt)

Ok




[3] Does your frost DK use Howling Blast without frost fever on the target?

Ok




[5] Does your Unholy DK not have Unholy Aura? If he does not, ask him why. If he thinks it is a bad talent, rack up 5 points.

Unholy aura is good on fights which require movement, the majority of heroics you stand still whilst fighting thus making it pretty worthless to take for heorics.




Overall your guide is a total peice of uninformed bullshit.

[suicidewarpig]

Some of them I agree with, others I do not. 2h tanking has it's bennifits, but you can get more avoidance from two tanking weapons and sword shattering. Our main tank is a DK. He dual-wields. He held up on thadd for 4 minutes without a healer... Sure, the swing reduction would be better with a two hander and you would need more hit-rating too, but avoidance is very important for a DK.

[Dankone]

You can easily use 60 points in unholy and still have a viable DPS build.

You can survive, but it's not optimal, which is the whole point of this guide; weeding out subprime Death Knights

Icy reach, Toughness, chilbains, and improved runetap are all perfectly acceptable to take dependent on builds.

Chilblains is a waste. Icy Reach is a COMPLETE waste (It only increases HB's range, NOT its radius). Improved rune tap is only acceptable in PvP builds and in builds that need to get to tier 5 of blood without putting points in DRM or Scent of Blood. Toughness is taken most of the time in PvE DPS by people going 51/13/7 who recognize its synergy with Bladed Armor. However, Black Ice is better because your Icy Touch and Frost Fever spells do, as one could imagine, frost damage.

Bloodworms in a tanking build are acceptable.

No. Bloodworms is NEVER acceptable. Ever seen a 25m DK tank with bloodworms?

I just dont get this, you obviously miss the other utility blood brings even if his gear isnt as good.

Blood is very gear dependent, and you are much better off going 21/50/0 or 17/0/54 until your gear improves. Abomination's Might, the big point of Blood utility, can be provided by enhancement and Marks hunters.

What about hybrid gems for meta requirements?

Guardian's Shadow Crystal - Item - World of Warcraft

Put two of those in somewhere and you're good to go (You are using Chaotic Skyfire, right?).

Wrong wrong wrong wrong, Cinderglacier and Razorice are often used in a DW build.

Cinderglacier is inferior to Fallen Crusader for MH, all the time. It's still disputed as to whether FC or Cinderglacier is better for OH, but it is clear that if your raid has FFB mages or any other frost damage dealing class, your best bet is OHing Razorice.

For non raid bosses, DW tanks can do fine.

Parry Hasting is still a problem. If you don't know what it is, every time an NPC parries your attack its next attack is sped up by 20% of the time remaining. I'm sounding like a broken record here, but let me reiterate: of course it works, but it's all about optimization.

-Ok, but if I dk is having to do this then your group is shit anyway.
-Unless your DK tank and/or healer is totally shit geared, they wont need to use cooldowns.
-Heroics cause problems? Maybe if you have the IQ of a brick.

I lumped all three of these because they deal with the same thing. I don't know if you group with robots that never make mistakes and play perfectly 100% of the time, but I know I don't. You MUST utilize EVERYTHING at your disposal to leave as little to chance as possible. Playing it safe is always worth it when you can do it with minimal effort.

Why waste time interupting in Heroics?

Have you done any raiding or heroics at all? What's better, 1.5k damage (about what 20 RP is worth) or an extra 4-6k that the tank (or the group, see volley spells) gets hit for and the healer has to heal? Also, shit can happen, and that spell might be the thing that kills your tank with other factors. I really can't believe you went against this one.

Unholy aura is good on fights which require movement, the majority of heroics you stand still whilst fighting thus making it pretty worthless to take for heorics.

-All bosses with whirlwind (Nexus etc)
-Skadi the Ruthless event
-Timed CoS
-Novos the Summoner
-Violet Hold
-Mage-Lord Urom

I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Overall your guide is a total peice of uninformed bullshit.

You're a bit quick to think that everything you know and believe is true. I don't appreciate the unnecessary ad-hominem either.

[Dankone]

Some of them I agree with, others I do not. 2h tanking has it's bennifits, but you can get more avoidance from two tanking weapons and sword shattering. Our main tank is a DK. He dual-wields. He held up on thadd for 4 minutes without a healer... Sure, the swing reduction would be better with a two hander and you would need more hit-rating too, but avoidance is very important for a DK.

Whatever minimal amount of avoidance you gain from DWing tank weapons, you lose from DWing. I think you severely underestimate the power of parry hasting. Every time a mob parries your attack, the time until his next attack is reduced by 20% of the time remaining. Since most 2h tank weapons are in the ~3.5 speed range, and most tanking weapons are in the 1.8 neighborhood, in a 60 second time frame:

3.5 will swing ~17 times
1.8 will swing 33 times, with two 1.8 weapons you will swing 67 times per minute. That's almost four swings for every swing done by a 3.5 speed 2 hander.

Parry chance for bosses is thought to be around 12-15%. Since one point of expertise reduces dodge/parry chance by .25%, you would need 48 to 60 expertise to roll parries off the table, an almost unattainable number while keeping your other stats in good balance.

[Zungate]

Depending on your gear, Razorice is a fine competitor to Fallen Crusader with a 21/50/0 2hand frost spec.

[thehacker3]

Jesus christ your clueless.



[5] Does the player have more than 60 points in any one tree?

You can easily use 60 points in unholy and still have a viable DPS build.




[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a PvE DPS build (Subtract point value for every talent included)? (Scent of Blood, Vendetta, Blade Barrier, Bloodworms, Icy Reach, Toughness, Chilblains, Unholy Command, Outbreak, Improved Rune Tap*)

Icy reach, Toughness, chilbains, and improved runetap are all perfectly acceptable to take dependent on builds.




[2] Does the player have any of the following talents for a tanking build (Add two for every talent included)? (Vendetta, Bloodworms, Chilblains)

Bloodworms in a tanking build are acceptable.




[5] Is the player blood without at least 1/2 ilvl 213 epics?

I just dont get this, you obviously miss the other utility blood brings even if his gear isnt as good.



GEAR/GEMS
[1] Gems should never include (for PvE DPS) blue stamina gems, ArP gems, haste gems, agility gems, resilience gems, spell penetration gems, any spell caster gems, etc. Rack a point for each inappropriate gem.

What about hybrid gems for meta requirements?




[10] Does the player have spell power gear? Add ten per piece with SpP on it.

Finally something you got right




[5] Is the player gemming for things other than hit/expertise when they are not at the hit/expertise cap (8% and 6.5% reduction to dodge/parry, respecticvely)? Hybrid gems are fine if they have at least one of the relevant stats, but if a person is using, for example, crit rating gems instead of hit rating gems, rack up 5 points.

I often trade off my hit gear for other gear and use foodbuffs to make up the difference.




[3] Does the player have an appropriate enchant? It's Swordshattering or Stoneskin Gargoyle for tanks, and ONLY Fallen Crusader for DPS. Cinderglacier or Razorice? Rack up points.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong, Cinderglacier and Razorice are often used in a DW build.




[5] Is your tank DWing? Dual Wielding facilitates parry hasting on bosses, and it a very poor choice.

For non raid bosses, DW tanks can do fine.



And now, for some things that cannot be determined by Armory:

PLAYING
[2] Does your DK DPS not use Death Grip to do things such as bringing a caster into a tank's AOE, or geting a mob off of the healer/ranged?

Ok, but if I dk is having to do this then your group is shit anyway.



[4] Is your DK DPS not using Strangulate/Mind Freeze to assist in interrupting spell casts?

Why waste time interupting in Heroics?




[3] Does your DK tank not regularly use cooldowns such as Icebound Fortitude and/or Vampiric Blood?

Unless your DK tank and/or healer is totally shit geared, they wont need to use cooldowns.




[5] Does your DK DPS open up with Death and Decay on a single target?

Fair point




[5] Does your DK DPS or Tank know how to Raise Dead/Death Pact in a pinch?

Heroics cause problems? Maybe if you have the IQ of a brick.




[5] Does your Unholy DK use Obliterate?

Ok



[5] Does your DK not use diseases? (51/0/20 diseaseless spec exempt)

Ok




[3] Does your frost DK use Howling Blast without frost fever on the target?

Ok




[5] Does your Unholy DK not have Unholy Aura? If he does not, ask him why. If he thinks it is a bad talent, rack up 5 points.

Unholy aura is good on fights which require movement, the majority of heroics you stand still whilst fighting thus making it pretty worthless to take for heorics.




Overall your guide is a total peice of uninformed bullshit.

I completely agree with him. You sir have either are really bad or never played a dk. Dual wielding = bad? lol. i guess i should throw my angry dead and split greathammer out the window. the entire point of frost build is duel wielding... Unholy aura is probably the most useless talent in the unholy tree...

please don't post a guide for death knights unless you actually play one and are in a reputable guild doing maly every week.