Spoon Feeding Info...

[Jaerin]

Don't get me wrong I understand the need to keep the riff-raff out, but that's not really what's being discussed here. This discussion, right here, is the only traffic in this section of the forums. Also by its nature the fact that this isn't a flame-fest and in fact a rational discussion should be evidence that those that are at least in this thread are competent enough to maintain an intelligent discussion.

No one is asking for hand outs, at least I don't think so...people are asking for more comprehensive lessons on how to reverse more than just simple offset finding and manipulation.

Thanks for the tip on MHS, I had tried it at one point, but the version I had kept bugging the UI or something like that. As you said though mostly just personal preferences.

[Jadd]

No one is asking for hand outs, at least I don't think so...people are asking for more comprehensive lessons on how to reverse more than just simple offset finding and manipulation.

Seriously? People are always asking for handouts around here without attempting to do it themselves. The internet has some damn good stuff to read, if you want to learn advanced reversing. l2google.

[Jaerin]

Here in this forum they are not. If you're talking about the WoW forum you are seeing a dying community just like WoW. The golden years are over and the most excitement that we've seen is when actual working dupes got released into the public.

Someone could easily and probably already has fully re-enabled the multihacks for WoW and no one would care. Hell I could start from scratch right this instant, reverse and develop a multihack for WoW and it wouldn't mean dick to anyone, but me. I could post my work and someone might use it or steal it or whatever, but it wouldn't even be noteworthy. So why bother...if its not about status or sharing work then what is it about? What would make you guys happy?

Look you could delete this thread and there wouldn't be a single post in this forum in the last week and that didn't even get a reply, before that its 3 weeks and there it was all replies by new people or new people who have donated. This community has no place to shun anyone from your doorsteps. There is no community here anymore unless you guys start making one. Fine abandon the WoW forums to the new generation of riff-raff, but you're bringing all the old garbage to SWTOR just like all the people you hate in WoW.

So don't do anything and things will remain exactly how they are right now or for once you could maybe pretend to listen to the voice of someone who actually has taken the time to give thought-out and reasonable responses to why there is no one around. To be honest the whole SWTOR section could disappear and I wouldn't care. I do have interest in learning more of a lot of things, but not sure why that makes me lesser of a person in the eyes of those who have already made the journey.

[Apoc]

"Making the journey" as you so kindly put it, is what I want people to do.

I could post a giant dump of info that basically lets people break every aspect of the game within a week (mind you, the list I posted in my OP, isn't even close to the amount of things you can do with purely built-in stuff). How does that help anybody aside from those copy/pasta artists who have no intention to learn what they're doing, and instead just release things for rep/money?

I have nothing against pixel-bot writers. While personally, I think its a bit "meh" to write pixel bots in this day and age, I can't fault people for doing it. Its a reliable, and safe way to bot (most of the time).

I may post some random info, which won't help the copy/pasta people, but should help people who actually spend the time to look through the game itself. (Such as scripts being ELF files, etc)

I will say, don't attach a debugger unless you have some sort of hiding plugin for it. (One that doesn't hook debugger funcs, etc) The game itself is quite simple to reverse, considering HeroEngine leaves quite a few of its comments in-place. (And whether Bioware removes them or not, makes no difference to how easy it is to find the 4-5 addrs that are actually useful in making a bot)

Here's your tip of the day; find the "GOM", and figure out how nodes, and definitions work. And you'll quickly realize how much info you can pull from the client. (If you want to do script calls, you'll need to figure out the HeroScriptExecutive as well, which includes the thunks, parser, loader, etc. You shouldn't mess with scripts until you fully understand node<->definition and node<->prototype<->definition stuff.) The client is full of RTTI information (use ClassInformer to pull vtables) so its quite simple to figure stuff out simply from ctors alone.

Either work from start->end, or the reverse. Once you get far enough to match up the global native script funcs, you'll basically be golden. (Hint: use old builds that still include names of functions. They stripped most of that stuff out from the client GOM definition file, and the exe itself. Beta builds work best! )

[Forza44]

I may decide to take a look at this game just out of curiosity and I may post some information. Jaerin the fact that you're asking for lessons from Apoc shows the little interest you have in truly learning the skills needed to become a programmer. What makes you think Apoc is such a great teacher in the first place? There are mounds and mounds of information posted online about how to get into programming and sites like UC are far better for asking programming related questions than OwnedCore seems to be (no offense intended to anyone here.) Want to learn the art of programming and reverse engineering? Get off your lazy ass (figuratively) and go teach yourself.

I have only been programming ~9 months and I've already had my work stolen and sold so I can only imagine how much Apoc has had to deal with. By the way, in my 9 months I have already made cheats for CSS, TF2, L4D2, DODS, BF3, Black Ops, MW3, and even Nation Red and a few other undocumented engines. Am I saying that to "brag" as I'm sure you are going to assume based on how you're expressing your feelings towards Apoc's original post? Of course not, I am telling you this to hopefully motivate you into learning. Are you going to be an expert programmer in 9 months? Absolutely not, but if you enjoy it and spend enough time working towards it then you can easily get to the point of writing your own code and fully understanding it.

EDIT: Seriously?!?!? I was up all night and I'm about to pass out but I've already found quite a few interesting things in less than an hour of reversing. I will post some info either tonight or tomorrow after I have time to test this stuff out. I will try to post at least enough for the rest of you to start reversing some information for yourself.

[Jaerin]

I don't disagree that the "journey" is important Apoc...There is a very wide gap between wanting you to dump anything and everything you know onto the public forums for all to dissect and use. Things are not nearly as black and white as that...

I'm asking for exactly the kinds of things that you just posted Apoc. Hints and clues as to what's available. The idea that you shouldn't attach a debugger unless you have plugins to hide it. What plugins? What methods do you use to hide yourself so that you can begin? Did you figure this out because you got caught or some other method? These are the things that are not specific to SWTOR that are useful to people. Why am I asking Apoc? Because I know he is one of the proven capable people in this community. No one should be denying Apoc's legacy, and no one should be mistaking this discussion for some kind of disrespect for him or his work.

The thing about the journey is that unless you want to be a one man show the advantage of a community is that you don't have to figure it all out on your own. You don't have to be an expert in all aspects of the project because you have the community for support. Also unless you are looking to make money from your work, why do you care if someone else steals it and sells it off somewhere else? You can control who is here and can get them banned I'm sure if they are crossing that line, but again if they are off harassing some other community why do you care? Trust me I understand the hurt that can come from betrayal and stealing, but unless YOU care about status or money from your work it doesn't matter. If is about sharing without stealing then where are the lessons on how to protect your code so that it doesn't get stolen? I'm not saying there aren't already lessons out there, but again we're talking about the status of this community. If you want me to leave this community and go find my information elsewhere that's fine, but I thought the point was to find where the community went?

[Apoc]

I may decide to take a look at this game just out of curiosity and I may post some information. Jaerin the fact that you're asking for lessons from Apoc shows the little interest you have in truly learning the skills needed to become a programmer. What makes you think Apoc is such a great teacher in the first place? There are mounds and mounds of information posted online about how to get into programming and sites like unknowncheats.me are far better for asking programming related questions than OwnedCore seems to be (no offense intended to anyone here.) Want to learn the art of programming and reverse engineering? Get off your lazy ass (figuratively) and go teach yourself.

I have only been programming ~9 months and I've already had my work stolen and sold so I can only imagine how much Apoc has had to deal with. By the way, in my 9 months I have already made cheats for CSS, TF2, L4D2, DODS, BF3, Black Ops, MW3, and even Nation Red and a few other undocumented engines. Am I saying that to "brag" as I'm sure you are going to assume based on how you're expressing your feelings towards Apoc's original post? Of course not, I am telling you this to hopefully motivate you into learning. Are you going to be an expert programmer in 9 months? Absolutely not, but if you enjoy it and spend enough time working towards it then you can easily get to the point of writing your own code and fully understanding it.

EDIT: Seriously?!?!? I was up all night and I'm about to pass out but I've already found quite a few interesting things in less than an hour of reversing. I will post some info either tonight or tomorrow after I have time to test this stuff out. I will try to post at least enough for the rest of you to start reversing some information for yourself.

Firstly; please don't advertise websites. Also, if you need questions answered by people who truly know their stuff (and by that, I mean the "top players" in game RE'ing, I suggest you take a look at Game Deception.)

@Jaerin; a simple google search would provide you answers to nearly all of those questions.

[Forza44]

GD is far less noob friendly which is why I recommended the site that I did. Going to GD with beginner questions will get you -rep'd and laughed at very quickly, it's best to just observe those forums until you have at least moderate knowledge.

When I made my previous edit, I unfortunately (as I said) only had roughly an hour looking through the engine. I was also extremely tired as I was up all night. After spending some more time looking through the engine it's not quite as simple as I had originally thought. The engine itself heavily relies on scripting, as I'm sure most of you already knew.

I actually have little to no personal interest in this game itself which obviously gives me the lack of motivation to look deeper into the engine. Although because I have absolutely nothing to do lately I'll try to at least spend a little time in the coming days / weeks looking into it. Hopefully I won't get too bored and I can give you guys some information to work with.

[Apoc]

GD is far less noob friendly which is why I recommended the site that I did. Going to GD with beginner questions will get you -rep'd and laughed at very quickly, it's best to just observe those forums until you have at least moderate knowledge.

When I made my previous edit, I unfortunately (as I said) only had roughly an hour looking through the engine. I was also extremely tired as I was up all night. After spending some more time looking through the engine it's not quite as simple as I had originally thought. The engine itself heavily relies on scripting, as I'm sure most of you already knew.

I actually have little to no personal interest in this game itself which obviously gives me the lack of motivation to look deeper into the engine. Although because I have absolutely nothing to do lately I'll try to at least spend a little time in the coming days / weeks looking into it. Hopefully I won't get too bored and I can give you guys some information to work with.

GD is very noob friendly. However, you need to post in the correct section, or you will be flamed (as per the unwritten rules). Its a pretty simple concept; post beginner questions in advanced sections, and get your ass chewed out. Post them in the correct section, you get answers.

[kexeel]

Except we're not the ones complaining about a complete lack of participation by this "big boy club". So it looks like your community has moved on and all that you're left with is all us eager little kids that you can't be bothered to do anything but belittle us and tell us that we should figure it out on our own or we don't deserve to be here. A community is about sharing ideas and building upon those ideas. Not everyone is an expert in every aspect and therefore sharing ideas allows people to contribute in different ways.

I get that you've been screwed over more than once, but you really should work on that chip on your shoulder. All I'm doing is asking for is the opportunity to learn from you. I'm taking all the information Forza posted to heart and I'll start there, but you just demonstrated the "elitist" attitude that is the reason that people don't bother joining these communities in the first place. Then to have you turn around and shun the people who are willing to work towards meeting the requirements just adds insult to injury.

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more. This kind of elitist attitude is what turns people off from any kind of community, or any kind of attempt to learn.

The fact I have donated justifies I support this community from the day I joined, I was never a leecher, I don't take hand outs from anyone. That being said, I have a right to voice my opinion. As Jaerin mentioned above, nobody is an expert at everything, give people a chance to learn and they may surprise you. Also, If you are really good at something, you would know that helping others only improves your own skills in that art, being able to teach and help someone understand something only allows your community to grow. This kind of negative attitude only makes you look small, and the community along with it.

I'm not asking you to copy/paste code, I'm actually against that sort of teaching. But at least give people the chance to 'learn how to fish'... there will always be people who just want the fish, and it is more prevalent in a larger sample like the WoW 'mess', that being said, the SWTOR isn't the WoW community, and you will find a lot of more mature players..

[Apoc]

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more. This kind of elitist attitude is what turns people off from any kind of community, or any kind of attempt to learn.

The fact I have donated justifies I support this community from the day I joined, I was never a leecher, I don't take hand outs from anyone. That being said, I have a right to voice my opinion. As Jaerin mentioned above, nobody is an expert at everything, give people a chance to learn and they may surprise you. Also, If you are really good at something, you would know that helping others only improves your own skills in that art, being able to teach and help someone understand something only allows your community to grow. This kind of negative attitude only makes you look small, and the community along with it.

I'm not asking you to copy/paste code, I'm actually against that sort of teaching. But at least give people the chance to 'learn how to fish'... there will always be people who just want the fish, and it is more prevalent in a larger sample like the WoW 'mess', that being said, the SWTOR isn't the WoW community, and you will find a lot of more mature players..

"Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach." (Always loved that quote)

I've given many hints (most of which can be started on within 5 minutes of opening the bin in IDA and searching for a string.). I'm avoiding the usual "someone posts a patch dump, everyone else updates their stuff". I'm pushing people to try to figure things out for themselves (in all honesty, the engine itself is hard to wrap your head around, but with that said, its also very simple in the way its written)

[_Mike]

Take the time to really sit down and learn x86 assembly language, figure out what (most of) the instructions are doing so you can look at a reverse engineered application and get a general idea of it's inner workings without completely relying on Hex-Rays, which is wrong quite often. Compile your own programs and peek in IDA / OllyDbg and figure out how everything works.

If I had to pick a single sentence from this whole thread and say 'do this', then this would be it Reverse engineering is something that (in my opinion at least) is much easier to learn by hands on "experimenting" rather than reading about. Sure you will need to know C(++) and assembler and for learning those text books and reference manuals are a good way. But for the rest it just comes down to experience.
You want to know how to find the scripting engine? How to enumerate all the objects in the game? That's not something you'll ever learn from a book. It's something you'll teach yourself over time and learn to how to recognize.

Start small. Make a simple Hello World application and disassemble it to figure out how it works. If you compile with debug symbols you'll have a lot of information available. Then recompile it as a release build. Look at the differences. Learn how to identify that some_unnamed_function is actually std::cout for example.
Then you might want to rewrite it using some simple classes. Learn how to spot the differences between a normal function call and a class method call. Learn how virtual methods work. Not just from C++'s abstracted point of view, but how they actually work behind the scenes.
Then once you've done that, the internet is full of reverse engineering challenges of various difficulty levels.

Also you complained about the lack of activity in this section.. Compared to what? The wow section? The wow section is dead, it just has the illusion of activity. After patches you have the info dumps being updated by the regulars so others can ctrl-c it, but besides that everything being posted is just the same questions being posted over and over again by those who are to lazy to search for the previous thread about the same thing.

[genecyber]

"Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach." (Always loved that quote)

I've given many hints (most of which can be started on within 5 minutes of opening the bin in IDA and searching for a string.). I'm avoiding the usual "someone posts a patch dump, everyone else updates their stuff". I'm pushing people to try to figure things out for themselves (in all honesty, the engine itself is hard to wrap your head around, but with that said, its also very simple in the way its written)

This was a fun thread to read my first day back. Hi Apoc Long time man!

A friend of mine is building a bot maker and he previewed it to me, and let me tell you what I totally got bit by the bot bug again. I just can't stay away. Ill probably try my hand at SWTOR just to get my feet wet. I miss my wow bots (My own personal fish tank of sorts)

[Cystacae]

Personally I'm fine with the pixelbots I write. Currently working on one that's going to blow the other two space bots out of the sky (or so I hope; it can go either way since I'm still in the proof of concept phase). Would I like to be able to RE? You bet I do! I've seen what great, productive things can be done with reversing. The old game Freelancer received tons of new features because of it. So would I want to invest what is necessary to learn reversing? Hell no, I'm way too impatient and lose interest far too quickly. So I have to accept the fact that reversing just isn't for me, with all the consequences that come with it.

I welcome the challenge to beat Lucky Spacebot now at its current state. Our team is set, we are trucking along and what needs to be done is getting done. Version 6 in development, we are content. I would love to RE stuff and it isn't like I don't want to, it is something I will learn through school, atleast the programming bit. What programming languages would you suggest me to take in school? C++ I see... what else? I learned LUA and AI3 all on my own without reading shit. Just took shit apart and put back together, split and reform, trial and error. I never asked for any help and I certainly am not going to ask for help. Except for a view on what classes woul best suit me in a game development environment and maybe some RE too.

[Distiny]

I kid sirs.

Seriously, has nobody besides me and a select few been reversing this game? There's been zero info posted here about the internals of the game, and I absolutely refuse to spoon-feed the masses for their own monetary gain. (Yes, I'm greedy. Suck it.)

As far as hacks go, Bioware is quite kind. They built in quite a few hacks for us! Some (and this is far from all of the ones I've found) include:

• Speed Hack - Not a timing speed hack. A literal run-speed hack. Tops out somewhere around 3000 meters per second before a DC. This doesn't speed up monsters, etc.
• Short-distance teleport hack. Yep, give it a Vec3, and boom you tele. (This is the one most people are currently using, which has the rubberbanding effect)
• Unlimited-distance teleport hack. Yes. Unlimited. No rubberbanding. This one seems to have zero server-side checks as to the destination point. There's also no limit on how many times you can call it.
• Model changer - Yes, useless but fun none-the-less.
• Terrain mover - I've moved some... doors.... closer due to laziness.
• GCD hax.
• Loading screen remover
• Animation switching
• Rendering changes (wireframe, collision mesh, inverted textures, etc)
• UI movement. Yes, moving the UI around.

did anyone (apart from the memory changing speed and teleport hacks) made anything regarding this ? It's way to quiet in here