Spoon Feeding Info...

[Sychotix]

I never said I wanted anything handed to me. I have specific questions, which result from me trying to do stuff. I know what a pointer is and entry level stuff like that. If they are too basic for you to answer that's not because I'm too lazy, but because your a little too high on your own abilities that you refuse to help beginners.

Well then he answered your question. in this third paragraph. Also, people such as Apoc/Cypher who are very well versed in REing are not "too high on their own abilities" to help noobs, but they want to share information in a way that you actually learn. Sure, they can write a "Here's a step by step tutorial on how to find the pointer for X", but that doesn't help people actually learn. For example, when people want to understand how pointers work, you just read the common "It is something that points to something else" But when you really learn what they are, you realize it is just an integer which is the representation of a [relative] address in memory. Typically this is discovered by the old "trial and error" method... "What happens when I print the value? Oh, it is a number!" "What happens when I have an int *x = malloc(sizeof(int)*4); and do x++;? What? The value increases by 4? Thats the size of an integer! Neato! And its pointing to x[1] now? O.O"

Spoonfeeding doesn't generate this kind of learning/understanding.

[Jaerin]

Sychotix you're describing the same tutorial that is on every hacking site on the web. I don't think there is a problem finding a pointer...

The question is do you understand assembly enough to understand that you are looking at a function that when you noop it or detour it you can do all kinds of neat things. Its understanding how to reverse things with tools like ida pro and debuggers to be able to find the relevant functions. We're not talking about simple x,y,z manipulation. We're talking about how do you even begin to know that you are looking at the code for the scripting engine as Apoc mentioned and then understanding it well enough to be able to use it to your advantage.

Unless Bioware was stupid and put comments and function names in their code so you can find it in ida pro, a vast majority of people won't even have a clue where to start. Those are the types of lessons that are sadly lacking in all the communities that I've seen. Then the only way to get beyond that point is to either A) reinvent the wheel because you have to "prove" yourself or B) convince someone who has already figured it out to mentor you and teach you.

Then on top of just the reversing you have to be able to know how to program well enough to understand how to manipulate what you are looking at. If this is really so simple that people just need to put forth a little effort then simple tutorials so be able to be written to get people started and interested. If its not then just giving examples of what CAN be done with an expert knowledge isn't really going to do much other than maybe get the other experts to reveal that they are working on it.

Even releasing your code as open source doesn't really do anything because unless you've documented the crap out of your code you still have to understand how you got from point A to B...its not usually good enough to just hand someone an exe that does it all for you. How did you find the proper functions, how do you hook the functions when you find it, you've found the x,y,z how do you know you're looking at say a player struct instead of some other piece of data. Why are there like 10 addresses that show your x,y,z and yet there must only be a couple that actually work.

These are the types of things that always stumped me and no one seemed to teaching that kind of knowledge. I'm a noob without a doubt and I'd like to learn more, but to honest I don't have a clue to know where to begin. Learning a programming language, learning assembly, learning game design, learning ida pro, learning a good debugger...not to mention most of the tutorials are very specific for finding one particular thing in one game...not how to reverse any game...

[Distiny]

I mostly agree with Jaerin, the step into reverse enginering to find functions, get structures etc isn't documented/ "tutorialised" anywhere as far as I know. I hope someone can prove me wrong and can get me started, I'm not lacking the interest nor the tools but just the knowledge. (reversing crackme's isn't much relevent for this kind of stuff I think)

[Apoc]

Sychotix you're describing the same tutorial that is on every hacking site on the web. I don't think there is a problem finding a pointer...

The question is do you understand assembly enough to understand that you are looking at a function that when you noop it or detour it you can do all kinds of neat things. Its understanding how to reverse things with tools like ida pro and debuggers to be able to find the relevant functions. We're not talking about simple x,y,z manipulation. We're talking about how do you even begin to know that you are looking at the code for the scripting engine as Apoc mentioned and then understanding it well enough to be able to use it to your advantage.

Unless Bioware was stupid and put comments and function names in their code so you can find it in ida pro, a vast majority of people won't even have a clue where to start. Those are the types of lessons that are sadly lacking in all the communities that I've seen. Then the only way to get beyond that point is to either A) reinvent the wheel because you have to "prove" yourself or B) convince someone who has already figured it out to mentor you and teach you.

Then on top of just the reversing you have to be able to know how to program well enough to understand how to manipulate what you are looking at. If this is really so simple that people just need to put forth a little effort then simple tutorials so be able to be written to get people started and interested. If its not then just giving examples of what CAN be done with an expert knowledge isn't really going to do much other than maybe get the other experts to reveal that they are working on it.

Even releasing your code as open source doesn't really do anything because unless you've documented the crap out of your code you still have to understand how you got from point A to B...its not usually good enough to just hand someone an exe that does it all for you. How did you find the proper functions, how do you hook the functions when you find it, you've found the x,y,z how do you know you're looking at say a player struct instead of some other piece of data. Why are there like 10 addresses that show your x,y,z and yet there must only be a couple that actually work.

These are the types of things that always stumped me and no one seemed to teaching that kind of knowledge. I'm a noob without a doubt and I'd like to learn more, but to honest I don't have a clue to know where to begin. Learning a programming language, learning assembly, learning game design, learning ida pro, learning a good debugger...not to mention most of the tutorials are very specific for finding one particular thing in one game...not how to reverse any game...

The thing is, people make the assumption that you can just dive into RE'ing without proper programming knowledge. Its a terrible idea.

For example, 99% of games are written in C++ now. If you don't know C++ yourself (including the little details such as how structures are laid out, classes, and how vtables work), you'll go absolutely nowhere trying to RE things. There are no tutorials for reversing structures, because structures are the result of reversing itself. (99% of what you're doing when you RE something, is defining the structures the application uses.) The rest falls into place when you look at the "big picture" of it and realize the hierarchy of the program.

Sure, you can step through very simple functions that don't contain structures, etc, but those are also the easiest to reverse. When I reverse something, I look specifically for what I need (say, interacting with a unit), once I find the function that does that (via BPs, or other means), I trace it all the way to its root and go from there. What was passed into the function? Any vtables? Is there some global object manager? Etc.

RE'ing isn't something you learn overnight, or even over the course of a month. People like kynox, Cypher, Bobbysing and crew, have been doing this stuff for years. Its just sad that people assume because someone else figured things out, they don't need to. If you can't learn what it does by yourself, you have no hope in hell of making anything actually useful, or being able to do things on your own.

[Jaerin]

The thing is, people make the assumption that you can just dive into RE'ing without proper programming knowledge. Its a terrible idea.

For example, 99% of games are written in C++ now. If you don't know C++ yourself (including the little details such as how structures are laid out, classes, and how vtables work), you'll go absolutely nowhere trying to RE things. There are no tutorials for reversing structures, because structures are the result of reversing itself. (99% of what you're doing when you RE something, is defining the structures the application uses.) The rest falls into place when you look at the "big picture" of it and realize the hierarchy of the program.

Sure, you can step through very simple functions that don't contain structures, etc, but those are also the easiest to reverse. When I reverse something, I look specifically for what I need (say, interacting with a unit), once I find the function that does that (via BPs, or other means), I trace it all the way to its root and go from there. What was passed into the function? Any vtables? Is there some global object manager? Etc.

RE'ing isn't something you learn overnight, or even over the course of a month. People like kynox, Cypher, Bobbysing and crew, have been doing this stuff for years. Its just sad that people assume because someone else figured things out, they don't need to. If you can't learn what it does by yourself, you have no hope in hell of making anything actually useful, or being able to do things on your own.

I don't disagree with you, but what type of programming knowledge? You know as well as I do that just knowing enough to write a Hello World program isn't enough programming knowledge. The fact that I understood most of what you were talking about leads me to believe that I have enough knowledge to begin understanding how to do something, but not the specifics about how you go about it.

Like in your example, what process do you go through to trace up the function to its root? What tools and applications are you using to do your reversing? Do you use CE at all like their pointer search or do you have other utilities that you use to find the pointers to the structs?

What parts of C++ do you really need to be able to understand? My problem is not really my ability to learn, it's motivation and proper direction. When I look at virtually any of the books on C++ they all generally follow the same process of touching on basics of how to write simple programs, but that doesn't really tell you how it applies to something like RE. I'm a person that learns very well from direct teaching and lecture. Reading a book will give me an overview, but translating that into a practical application has always been my weakness. I'm a genius if you have questions about backup and storage, but I've never been able to find the write source of information to what I really need to know.

As I said I understand the basics...I would say in general I understand the concepts of keeping some of these hacks a alive, but I lack the practical experience doing it. In fact now would be the perfect time for me to learn it because I have like 2 weeks that I don't have ANYTHING going on. So I beg you Apoc teach me. I'm not trying to portray you as some ego manic, but we both know that the hacking communities are filled with *******s and elitist jerks. I'm all for people profiting off their work provided they provide quality work and support.

[Forza44]

I actually read your entire post Jaerin, but one comment you made in particular really stands out.

In fact now would be the perfect time for me to learn it because I have like 2 weeks that I don't have ANYTHING going on.

The process of properly learning how to reverse engineer takes far longer than two weeks. As a matter of fact two weeks isn't even enough to get past some basic C++, even if you spend all day every day learning. I would also highly suggest that you not even bother with learning C++ / RE if your only motivation is to make a bot for yourself. You need to truly enjoy it to get good at it, plain and simple. There are a ridiculous amount of resources as far as learning C++ but RE is more of something you pick up along the way and there are very few lessons on it. You mention the fact that all the books out there do nothing more than teach you the basics and this could not be further from the truth.

There are books like C++ Primer's that teach the basics and then there are books like Windows Internals that dive into more advanced teachings. You can not hope to read a simple C++ book and be under the delusion that you're ready to start learning how to make cheats because it simply does not work that way. After learning the fundamentals of C++ you will have to spend many more months learning the fundamentals of RE. This can be done by not only reading books but also, in my opinion a better method, compile your own programs and take a peek at them in IDA to see how they work. Change various parts of the program around and see what changes in the assembly code. Learn how the compiler and linker work, take a course on x86 assembly language. Further down the line you will also obviously want to learn how to modify memory, inject code, learn how hooks work, etc.

Want some advice on how to get yourself prepared to write your own bot? Pay attention and take my advice seriously. There is no best way to go about learning C++ / RE, it is something you will have to teach yourself in your own way. Seriously, go out and get yourself a good C++ book for beginners (I really recommend C++ Primer's 6th Edition) and read it front to back, completing every single exercise. Join many different C++ / RE communities and ask questions when you can't figure out something for yourself, but don't ever get to the point of relying on the community figuring out your problems for you. Spend enough time on it and you WILL learn C++, I guarantee you that.

Reverse Engineering is a little more complicated to learn than C++ not only because there are so few resources on it but also for the simple fact that it's not easily taught in books, but rather something where you need to learn from experience. Take the time to really sit down and learn x86 assembly language, figure out what (most of) the instructions are doing so you can look at a reverse engineered application and get a general idea of it's inner workings without completely relying on Hex-Rays, which is wrong quite often. Compile your own programs and peek in IDA / OllyDbg and figure out how everything works. I also highly suggest reading on how the PE Format (windows binaries) work. Also never forget one of the best resources on your journey into becoming a great C++ programmer, MSDN!

PS: I put some helpful links below, but because I am a new member I am restricted from the number of links I can post so I decided to use an image containing the links to bypass the filter. Also - first post!

Helpful Links:

[Sychotix]

^ completely agree with what he said. Congrats on your first post =)

[kexeel]

You have people donating to the site and you treat them like garbage? No surprise, the site contains garbage and nothing has been updated and what is here is outdated. Let's see some real content from you, and no reason to hand hold the people who want to learn.

[Apoc]

You have people donating to the site and you treat them like garbage? No surprise, the site contains garbage and nothing has been updated and what is here is outdated. Let's see some real content from you, and no reason to hand hold the people who want to learn.

I think you misunderstand what I do here.

I'm not here as a community representative. I take care of server issues, and the like.

If you don't like our community, feel free to go elsewhere, nobody is going to beg you to stay.

This section is for advanced users, and thusly, advanced users need to know what they're doing before even entering this section. This isn't the little kids area, this is the big boys place. If you can't handle it, please don't join the conversation.

@Forza44; couldn't have said it better myself.

[Jaerin]

I think you misunderstand what I do here.

I'm not here as a community representative. I take care of server issues, and the like.

If you don't like our community, feel free to go elsewhere, nobody is going to beg you to stay.

This section is for advanced users, and thusly, advanced users need to know what they're doing before even entering this section. This isn't the little kids area, this is the big boys place. If you can't handle it, please don't join the conversation.

@Forza44; couldn't have said it better myself.

Except we're not the ones complaining about a complete lack of participation by this "big boy club". So it looks like your community has moved on and all that you're left with is all us eager little kids that you can't be bothered to do anything but belittle us and tell us that we should figure it out on our own or we don't deserve to be here. A community is about sharing ideas and building upon those ideas. Not everyone is an expert in every aspect and therefore sharing ideas allows people to contribute in different ways.

I get that you've been screwed over more than once, but you really should work on that chip on your shoulder. All I'm doing is asking for is the opportunity to learn from you. I'm taking all the information Forza posted to heart and I'll start there, but you just demonstrated the "elitist" attitude that is the reason that people don't bother joining these communities in the first place. Then to have you turn around and shun the people who are willing to work towards meeting the requirements just adds insult to injury.

[Nesox]

Except we're not the ones complaining about a complete lack of participation by this "big boy club". So it looks like your community has moved on and all that you're left with is all us eager little kids that you can't be bothered to do anything but belittle us and tell us that we should figure it out on our own or we don't deserve to be here. A community is about sharing ideas and building upon those ideas. Not everyone is an expert in every aspect and therefore sharing ideas allows people to contribute in different ways.

I get that you've been screwed over more than once, but you really should work on that chip on your shoulder. All I'm doing is asking for is the opportunity to learn from you. I'm taking all the information Forza posted to heart and I'll start there, but you just demonstrated the "elitist" attitude that is the reason that people don't bother joining these communities in the first place. Then to have you turn around and shun the people who are willing to work towards meeting the requirements just adds insult to injury.

Apoc is right.
Just take a look at the MES for wow it's completely overrun by idiots who beg for code and updated offsets every patch because they have no ****ing clue how to do it themselves.
He's not posting to "belittle" anyone or showoff we just don't want a second or third wow mes

[Distiny]

I hope someone find the time to dig deeper into swtor and release some nice private pay cheats. I certainly lack the skill

[Jaerin]

Apoc is right.
Just take a look at the MES for wow it's completely overrun by idiots who beg for code and updated offsets every patch because they have no ****ing clue how to do it themselves.
He's not posting to "belittle" anyone or showoff we just don't want a second or third wow mes

You call it a mess, I call it active. There is a demand and desire which are biggest motivators to get things done and to attract the talent required to make a community. Those idiots that are begging today could be the people who are programming utilities tomorrow. Not to mention if someone had the capabilities to do it themselves then they don't need you anymore. They have no reason to join this community because they have nothing to gain by coming here.

So feel free to keep up the attitudes and the community will stay exactly where it is today or as in the case of the WoW forums on here continue to descend further into only just beggers and scammers. I know that I'd much rather come to a community where THAT is the feature of the day. Might as well just reopen the scamming section while you're at it...

[Ludowitsch]

When I first read Apoc's OP I was like "Well, then just don't. What's the ruckus?".

I'm one of these so called little boys. After some thinking however I have to agree with Apoc. We just have to look at the real world. The bright guys invent cool stuff left and right and the dull bullies use it to bash each others' heads in (and those of some innocent bystanders as well while they're at it). It would totally be okay if every single one of us would just use such knowledge for educational purposes, but frankly most of the guys who don't have a clue will just use it to ruin the game for others. Besides, you can't really appreciate something until you know its true value which usually is a combination of blood, sweat and tears. So not spoon feeding us anything works as some sort of maturity filter, keeping the script kiddies at bay.

Personally I'm fine with the pixelbots I write. Currently working on one that's going to blow the other two space bots out of the sky (or so I hope; it can go either way since I'm still in the proof of concept phase). Would I like to be able to RE? You bet I do! I've seen what great, productive things can be done with reversing. The old game Freelancer received tons of new features because of it. So would I want to invest what is necessary to learn reversing? Hell no, I'm way too impatient and lose interest far too quickly. So I have to accept the fact that reversing just isn't for me, with all the consequences that come with it.

One thing I don't get however is Apoc's frowning upon CE. Why's that? It's just another tool. It's like frowning upon any tool used for reversing you didn't write yourself.

[Apoc]

Except we're not the ones complaining about a complete lack of participation by this "big boy club". So it looks like your community has moved on and all that you're left with is all us eager little kids that you can't be bothered to do anything but belittle us and tell us that we should figure it out on our own or we don't deserve to be here. A community is about sharing ideas and building upon those ideas. Not everyone is an expert in every aspect and therefore sharing ideas allows people to contribute in different ways.

I get that you've been screwed over more than once, but you really should work on that chip on your shoulder. All I'm doing is asking for is the opportunity to learn from you. I'm taking all the information Forza posted to heart and I'll start there, but you just demonstrated the "elitist" attitude that is the reason that people don't bother joining these communities in the first place. Then to have you turn around and shun the people who are willing to work towards meeting the requirements just adds insult to injury.

If I were to post what I know about the game client, what would that solve? Absolutely nothing. The same copy/pasta people would take that information, throw it in some paid-for hack, and make money off of our hard work. Then, once a patch comes along, they'll do the same thing all over.

I understand some people want the info for personal projects, etc. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm more than willing to help people out who actually want to put in the time and effort to learn. However, I have absolutely zero energy, or tolerance, for people who want to be spoon-fed their money. If you have questions about how things work, I'll be happy to answer. If you have questions like "where is the address to do a speed hack", you can go **** yourself.

I'm not here to stifle people from writing bots/hacks. I want people to LEARN how to do them by themselves, instead of working off the back of roughly 4-5 people in the entire community.

You call it a mess, I call it active. There is a demand and desire which are biggest motivators to get things done and to attract the talent required to make a community. Those idiots that are begging today could be the people who are programming utilities tomorrow. Not to mention if someone had the capabilities to do it themselves then they don't need you anymore. They have no reason to join this community because they have nothing to gain by coming here.

So feel free to keep up the attitudes and the community will stay exactly where it is today or as in the case of the WoW forums on here continue to descend further into only just beggers and scammers. I know that I'd much rather come to a community where THAT is the feature of the day. Might as well just reopen the scamming section while you're at it...

You obviously haven't been around long. I can count the number of people who understand enough of the WoW client (which is by far, the easiest client to reverse... ever) to be able to post patch dumps, on one hand. The rest are constantly copy/pasting offsets into their bots, and more often than not, entire logic systems, classes, etc. I've posted quite a few "bot writing tutorials" here, and of them, not a single one hasn't been seen in some commercial bot. We have a private sub-forum here on OC for those who we know possess the skill required to feed the trolls and copy/pasters. In total, I think we're up to 8 people?

As I said before, I'm more than willing to help people who are actually interested in learning this stuff, and want to keep doing it. But I have no interest in feeding the people who are here only to make money off the work a select few have done. Feel free to PM me any serious questions, etc. I'll answer in whatever way I can.

When I first read Apoc's OP I was like "Well, then just don't. What's the ruckus?".

I'm one of these so called little boys. After some thinking however I have to agree with Apoc. We just have to look at the real world. The bright guys invent cool stuff left and right and the dull bullies use it to bash each others' heads in (and those of some innocent bystanders as well while they're at it). It would totally be okay if every single one of us would just use such knowledge for educational purposes, but frankly most of the guys who don't have a clue will just use it to ruin the game for others. Besides, you can't really appreciate something until you know its true value which usually is a combination of blood, sweat and tears. So not spoon feeding us anything works as some sort of maturity filter, keeping the script kiddies at bay.

Personally I'm fine with the pixelbots I write. Currently working on one that's going to blow the other two space bots out of the sky (or so I hope; it can go either way since I'm still in the proof of concept phase). Would I like to be able to RE? You bet I do! I've seen what great, productive things can be done with reversing. The old game Freelancer received tons of new features because of it. So would I want to invest what is necessary to learn reversing? Hell no, I'm way too impatient and lose interest far too quickly. So I have to accept the fact that reversing just isn't for me, with all the consequences that come with it.

One thing I don't get however is Apoc's frowning upon CE. Why's that? It's just another tool. It's like frowning upon any tool used for reversing you didn't write yourself.

I understand RE'ing isn't for everyone. Its a daunting thing to learn, and not everyone is up to it, nor patient enough to learn it to begin with. It really has its very own niche of a select few people who enjoy it. That's perfectly fine, and I have nothing against people who don't, or can't, learn how to do it. My original post isn't pointed towards them in the least (I was in that boat once as well, so why would I break balls about it?). I want people to at least *try* to figure things out. The community has gone from a very large chunk of people trying to figure things out for themselves, to 95% asking for updated info and not bothering to even try themselves.

@The CE comment;
Its a personal preference really. Once you learn and understand MHS, you'll never go back to CE. I just hate CE due to its lack of... well.. accuracy and ability to filter things. MHS includes far more utility than CE ever will. CE is literally just a value scanner (their debugger/disasm and whatnot are meh at best). MHS covers that in a much more robust package, with far more usefulness.