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  1. #1
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    The future of emulation

    Well hello there MMOwned, I am here this time to ask for feedback and thoughts on the below.

    This was the concept thought.


    Originally Posted by Underseas
    This is the future of the emulation World of Warcraft. We cannot go on as we are. Look where it has gotten us, with two communities, and around that of 50 different database teams all redoing what is done and to an acceptable mark.

    The entire Emulation scene needs to work together to get one good solid database, WoW isn't developed by a team of 5 or 10 is it? Blizzard have hundreds of people working to get WoW to the standard is at, how can a group of 5 - 10 people think to achieve a Blizzlike database and keep up with the pace Blizzard set?

    At the minute, there is indeed a large gap down the middle of Ascent and MaNGOS developers, that splits the community in two, that stops a lot of work, for example; MaNGOS has a very nice event system working. No such thing exists for Ascent, that is simply too much to convert or redo. Yet should the teams of Ascent decide to do that, they wouldn't decide to do one event each, currently, they'd all do every single one. Sounds like a waste of time to me.

    We at Ascent, and those at MaNGOS need a universal database structure, then everyone will know the database layout; thus people do not need to attempt to convert or reproduce something that has been well created on the other emu. I am not suggesting either emu uses the others structure, I suggest a new one, decided by the developers of both emus. In doing this, much bigger teams can form, there will be no large gap between the two database developments, whilst I admit this is pretty far fetched, think of the results.

    Though just a universal structure wouldn't be enough, these 'teams' of no more than 10 people need to begin working together, again I acknowledge the fact this will be no easy task for some. People should list what their own little team will do, then other teams can avoid doing it and work on something else. Imagine how fast and well that would go. Every Blizzlike developer makes something small, just like scripting a single mob, or boss; that'd soon finish all the scripting required. Or say 10 teams go and make events, currently as I said, there is no large scale teamwork. Each of the 10 teams would work to reproduce all the events, bringing out many duplicates of what the other teams have produced. All that needs doing, is one team to focus one one event, and another on another. This will result in the emu scene speeding up by a fair amount, and the quality raising too, as there would be less work to do for each team.

    I know you people are starting to think `What the hell that would never work!` with a few more swearwords than that in. But honestly, we need to stop competing with each other, we're against Blizzard. That is a too bigger foe to split up and start competing with others too.


    If you can't be bothered to read the full post, just don't carry on screwing up and redoing what has been done well over 100 times before, think about it, state what you're going to fix before you do it and - if you're the other team who sees what someone else plans to do, don't try and beat them to it, go make something else that requires attention, Burlex or whomever, think about the universal database structure. It is needed.

    ~ Underseas

    Thanks if you actually read it, I really think this needs to happen if we're to get Burning Crusade working completely before Blizzard drop the WotLK Nuke on us all...
    But, SectorSeven said a problem about getting along with each other...

    Originally Posted by Underseas
    You don't need constant communication. If you must stay apart, you could state what you're going to make/fix and avoid doing what others are doing/have done. This will save a lot of people's effort and time, the workload would be sliced so small it'd become easy on everyone.

    Once one team has made a good fix or whatever, it can be uploaded and put into one big database. If every team contributes into this one `master` database, then who knows where we'll be. Just a lot further than where we are now. People would be making their mark on the whole emu scene for contributing to a huge database project, rather than a crappy little project on it's own, with crap content due to the fact it was rushed to keep up with Blizzard.

    Right now I can bet that every database team listed in the poll here are all working on the new island + instances that came with 2.4, each one will be doing almost exactly the same as the rest. Still sounds like a waste of time and effort to me.

    How many teams are there here? around 10 right? Quel'Danas isn't that big really, not if people stated which part they're going to do and then post it. Then, once all the teams have finished on their small section of the island. They're put together like a puzzle. The whole Isle of Quel'Danas finished in 1/10 of the time, and will look better due to less needing to be done.


    Can you understand what I'm trying to say?

    ~ Underseas

    I then suggested these.

    Originally Posted by Underseas
    #1 A place to post what is being made, and who by. We can't have 5 different sites saying what each team is doing. Neutral. I guess here is fine unless we do get the universal database structure.
    #2 An ultimate name for the database. Nothing biased or anything to do with any existing team or emu.
    #3 To act like adults and not 5 year olds, This is the most crucial of all, if we cannot talk together and result in flaming, we will fail.
    #4 Basic rules, to stop things going wrong. We don't want the community to break down.


    People seemed to agree this is a brilliant idea, but we would need somewhere for this to be run, and any problems dealt with as quickly as possible. Wock then came out with an elaborated idea about #1.

    Originally Posted by Wock
    If I may elaborate and give my interpretation and summary of what could be done.

    (1) Start ONE website (Forum based phpbb3) that is devoted to DATABASE development.

    I would call it THE REPOSITORY

    (2) Break it down into sections. Each section is a ZONE. In each zone list the BUGS or Problems that effect THAT ZONE. Then list FIXES in one thread (For that zone) and in a sticky have a CREDIT page for people that want their credits to be known. Credit each FIX to that person and list the CODE and what REV it can be applied to. If the Fix is fully adopted then it is moved to a MAIN CREDIT PAGE and listed in what DBs is now is incorporated in.

    (3) List THINGS TO FIX for each zone section. Maybe there is a solo coder out there that wants to tackle making a fix in an unpopular zone. They fix it and post the fix and they are added to the ZONE's credit page. If it is adopted in future revisions then their name is added into the "Hall of Fame" on the main credit page.

    (4) SHARE code, info, and tricks and tips. These also get credit. So one development team fixes an issue they post it and get credit. Another team say has the best content they post it for EVERYBODY to use and get into the "hall of fame" credit page.

    (5) You have two branches. B and F. B is BLizzlike. F is Fun server. First you build a stable B version then you build an F branch of that Version and have EVERYONE adopt the same naming revision scheme. (ie. xxxdb rev 234-B xxxdb rev 233-F) that way people can easily identify whether it is BLIZZLIKE or has modified settings and content geared more towards "Fun Servers". This would help ORGANIZE things because then not only do you know what direction someone is developing but you know what to expect when you install the DB and can choose whether you want a B revision or an F revision

    (6) THE REPOSITORY should be completely INDEPENDENT. It should be a mutual and respectful meeting ground of ALL DEVELOPERS and should not allow flaming in any manner. Simple. Have moderators that DELETE any post that flames anyone. Period. No questions asked. No reason give. Just delete it. Keep it simple. If people want to discuss things, flame, or voice their opinions then find another site to do so. The REPOSITORY should be about one thing and one thing only.

    An independent source of collected information used in DB development and fixes for ALL WOW EMUs. Maybe a UDB developer has a fix for another DB developer. They post it and are credited for it. Maybe ADB comes out with a fix that Project Silver Moon uses. The credit is on THE REPOSITORY for all the public to see.

    Simply put. Not only does THE REPOSITORY hold information from ALL developers on fixes, content, code, scripts, whatever but it is ALSO the central PLACE where you point to CREDITS.

    So lets say I develop a DB based on information I obtained. Instead of having to sift through all the fixes, and content contributors and even say NCDB was originally my foundation. Instead of having to try to remember all that stuff all I would need to do is make sure I leave a link in a text file with my DB (ie credits.txt) and inside that text file it has one link. THe link to the "Hall of Fame" REPOSITORY site which lists ALL THE CREDITS from the smallest solo developer who came up with one single fix to say Walla and his major efforts in developing NCDB.

    As more people contribute the Credit list grows BUT as it grows it ALWAYS REMEMBERS ALL the contributions.

    Instead of posting something on a website and giving a few people credit. YOu can just list that one credit page URL and people can read ALL THE CREDITS. That way those that really feel that credit should be given do not ever have to worry about not getting their credit. It is one universal credit page.

    And also the REPOSITORY would encourage developers to contribute code,fixes, content, etc because THAT is where they EARN credit. The more they contribute the more credit they get.

    Summary
    Even though people may not get along and may even have different views does not mean that they cannot mutually agree to share information.

    Look at a library. Many authors may HATE other authors. They may have conflicting views and beliefs and they may NOT even speak the same language.

    But you walk into a LIBRARY and you are able to in one single place look through ALL the books and all the different author's books without causing any conflict between authors.

    In this digital age one ORGANIZED website could achieve more and help more if it was agreed upon as a NEUTRAL meeting place where you are their for one reason. To contribute and share information with other developers and to see the proper credits are posted for each person's contribution NOT to a project but rather the COMMUNITY in a whole.


    A Hall of Fame that also is a Hall of Knowledge.

    My two cents
    So then, here we are. The Revolution. All developers just adding their own little fixes. To make the best.

    We have one solid idea here, but we need to know that developers will actually follow through and not ignore our idea.

    Could someone with a good reputation please PM all the major developers you can think of, and ask whether they're interested in becoming one godlike database, or would rather being an individual project that will last 1 - 3 months.

    This idea alone will be great, but if we're to take one step further, we could get a universal database structure. Those at MaNGOS could help as well then, we truly would be equal to Blizzard. Do not reply to the comment about MaNGOS in a negative way, we need a large group of developers, if we had MaNGOS developers too, then the workload would be even smaller.

    I think this is a major turning point for Ascent, and hopefully MaNGOS too.

    ~ Underseas
    ~ Underseas

    The future of emulation
  2. #2
    2dgreengiant's Avatar ★ Elder ★


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    Fail.

    Since who would be the head admin? Since im sure there will a fight over that. Ok so all the db teams as head leader? What id some don agree with other things there will be fights arguments etc. Also some teams may not want to share certain things to other groups IE: ways to get spawns etc... Also some teams may not want the name chosen they may like their current name. Finally you cant stop some people being 5 year olds, its the way of life.

    just my opinion.

    ~2d~
    If you need me you have my skype, if you don't have my skype then you don't need me.

  3. #3
    ~SaiLyn~'s Avatar Contributor
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    Originally Posted by 2dgreengiant View Post
    Fail.

    Since who would be the head admin? Since im sure there will a fight over that. Ok so all the db teams as head leader? What id some don agree with other things there will be fights arguments etc. Also some teams may not want to share certain things to other groups IE: ways to get spawns etc... Also some teams may not want the name chosen they may like their current name. Finally you cant stop some people being 5 year olds, its the way of life.

    just my opinion.

    ~2d~

    -agrees- + ((((Filler))))

  4. #4
    arigity's Avatar Banned
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    win.

    i will be the head admin to ensure that no one else is.

  5. #5
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    Well, it should be someone neutral to be 'head admin' that has no power over any teams, just deletes the crap.

    The name would be voted on, I'm sure people would like just Blizzlike DB or something.. Be realistic, the name doesn't matter, it's the work that counts.

    People do not need to share their methods, just the finalised piece which can be uploaded, credits will be maintained by the leader.

    I think Burlex should be the leader, he has no power over database teams (that I know of) people respect him, and he will hopefully stay neutral.

    There will be no chance of arguments, contact between other teams would be limited to stop that.

    ~ Underseas

    Still fail now I answered your questions?
    ~ Underseas

  6. #6
    Entr0py's Avatar Member
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    underseas is 100% completely right.
    ive always thought that every1 needs to just work together if they are gonna make somthing as good a blizz.
    of course tho, doing this, getting every1 together would be incredibly hard but i think posible

    Remember to + Rep people who help you!

  7. #7
    Cursed's Avatar Contributor
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    Hmm yes still fail... You wont get all those people stopping acting like 5 year old kids.

  8. #8
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    The people worth having on the team are the ones with the maturity.. If a person acts like a 5 year old, you can't expect them to be very good at it anyway.

    It should be do something wrong /ban.

    See the thread over at Ascent Emu for a little more detail, this was really just to bring it to your ground. Because I wanted your opinions and to alert you of what may happen in the future. As you can see, there are very mixed opinions on this. But there is only one reason for it to not happen.

    Immaturity. If people cannot work in big groups, then..

    What if the forum was organized by project, then people can only post in the forum they belong to, but all registered members can view them. That way, downloads can be listed, and everyone can see who's doing what currently. No flame wars can start as nobody can post in others forums. Team members can speak amongst themselves freely.
    People are still following the main idea, just no contact with other teams, yet people are still able to see what is going on. One ultimate database made by each individual team.
    ~ Underseas

  9. #9
    Entr0py's Avatar Member
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    mmm, i must say underseas you are a fantastic 'speaker'.
    well, id love to help u out on this
    im not to good at emu and stuff but id love to help out in anyway i can
    anything
    hope u get this started
    and can u post a link to ur thread at ascentemu? i cant find it
    Last edited by Entr0py; 04-24-2008 at 03:40 PM.

    Remember to + Rep people who help you!

  10. #10
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    ~ Underseas

  11. #11
    Entr0py's Avatar Member
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    thanks*filler*

    Remember to + Rep people who help you!

  12. #12
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    Let's hope just speaking is enough to convince people that this is a good idea, able to get the emu community closer to a 100% blizzlike database.
    ~ Underseas

  13. #13
    WiKKiD's Avatar Member
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    Blizzard does it for the money. A clear and concise goal for everyone to achieve.

    Nobody makes money here (except maybe private server admins).

    The only reason people do this stuff is for personal recognition. If you make 1 big team, people stop being individuals. People stop getting personal credit and personal props for what they do.

    Teams work when there's a mutual goal. But when everyone is out to feed their own ego's/demonstrate their own personal abilities... Sadly, it just won't happen.

    The sad part is, if it could happen, it would advance this community so far so fast.

  14. #14
    Entr0py's Avatar Member
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    Wikki has a point...
    However I think the challenge is a good inscentive for most people.
    I mean come on guys, to have a database that is as good as blizzards? Thats a huge achievement.

    Remember to + Rep people who help you!

  15. #15
    Placeholder's Avatar Member
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    But there is a goal! To be blizzlike! How many people long for a good blizzlike database?

    +


    Simply put. Not only does THE REPOSITORY hold information from ALL developers on fixes, content, code, scripts, whatever but it is ALSO the central PLACE where you point to CREDITS.

    People shall still receive credits, not only as an individual, but as a developer on the only good database around.
    ~ Underseas

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