[Guide] Memory Editing - The Basics

[amadmonk]

Oh lord, that's such a retarded explanation, but at least now I understand why you were confused.

The addresses in green are (I assume) in the application's data/rdata/etc sections.

Shhh, don't confuse them with image layout stuff...

[rootguy]

Write my own code?

Where's the fun in just swiping someone else's code?

Ofcourse you would, many others would too but not the majority.
I can't help to think c# is the new and improved visual basic script kiddy language.
Don't get me wrong, as i said i don't want to offend all c# users. Writing well designed programs is hard in any language.
I started out with autoit myself many years ago, switch to c/c++ and never looked back.
But my point is for a very advanced section like the forum description states we get a lot of basic questions and basic tutorials, things you pick up when learning to program really.
Shynd's lib and c# make it possible for anyone to make basic bots without having the slightest clue about wth they are doing, hence all these idiotic questions.

[Apoc]

Ofcourse you would, many others would too but not the majority.
I can't help to think c# is the new and improved visual basic script kiddy language.
Don't get me wrong, as i said i don't want to offend all c# users. Writing well designed programs is hard in any language.
I started out with autoit myself many years ago, switch to c/c++ and never looked back.
But my point is for a very advanced section like the forum description states we get a lot of basic questions and basic tutorials, things you pick up when learning to program really.
Shynd's lib and c# make it possible for anyone to make basic bots without having the slightest clue about wth they are doing, hence all these idiotic questions.

I take offense to that.

For the exception of a few very low level things; C# is more than capable of handling just about anything C++ can do. (As a few of us have proven over the passed few months) Just because you're a C++ junkie doesn't mean it's the only viable option. If someone wrote a BlackMagic type lib for C++; I'm sure we'd have just as many dumbasses using C++ instead of C#.

C# is far from a skiddy language. Just because it's easier to use in quite a few aspects than C++ doesn't make it any worse.

Please; get your head out of your ass. Not even Cypher bashes C# that much anymore. (And he's a C++ nazi!)

[namreeb]

<shameless plug>
malloc() > *
</shameless plug>

[Cypher]

I bash C# because it's fun to rile Apoc.

However, I quite like C# and .NET. It's much nicer to use than C++ for high-level Windows apps.

Granted, I would never use it in the way that some of the more 'dedicated' C# devs do (Apoc, Greyman, etc). However I can understand why they do it, just like they understand why I write apps in C++ that would be 'easier' to write in C++.

It's just what we're used to and what we're good at.

I'm better at C++, they're better at C#. Both languages have strengths and weaknesses, however I too take offence to you calling C# the "kiddy" language.

Whilst I understand your position (and I agree that programming has become 'too accessible'*) I think it's silly to say that just because a language is easy to use it's somehow 'kiddy'. That's what makes it so great! C++ forces you to do so much extra work that is taken care of automatically in .NET.

Sometimes being low level is a good thing (it certainly is in most of my projects -- rootkits, bots, reversing, cracking, malware research, etc). But sometimes you just want to write 'normal' code, where you don't care about all the gory low level details, and that's where I'd definitely choose C# and .NET if I wasn't so awful at it (I'm learning though).

The difference between .NET though and other 'kiddy' languages is that .NET actually is a powerful and fully-fledged programming language. You can do nearly anything in .NET which can be done in C++.

Lastly, I agree that it's currently 'too easy' to break into WoW bot writing, and that's one of the problems. However I (or someone else) could just as easily release a C++ equivalent of Blackmagic/Whitemagic and we'd be back where we are now. That being said though, I think the problem is just that people are given too much information without having to work for it. You either need to make them work for it, or be very strict on the type of questions that are allowed to be asked (hence forcing them to work for it anyway, because they need to do their own research).**

* I know that statement sounds elitist (and it may very well be so), which is why I wrapped it in quotes and felt the need to justify it. The problem as I see it is not really that programming has become too accessible per-se, it's that it's become too easy to write bad code and get away with it. Whilst .NET being forgiving is often a good thing, in the wrong hands it fosters poor-quality code, which is of course a bad thing.

** Apoc, I know you're taking a stand against the stupid questions, but it's not your conduct I'm referring to. The problem is simply with the site's goals/aims/etc. The higher-level staff simply don't want to alienate users. And whilst I can understand that, it certainly makes it frustrating for others.

EDIT:

<shameless plug>
malloc() > *
</shameless plug>

Malloc sucks. I'll take new/delete and smart pointers any day of the week.

EDIT2:

Shhh, don't confuse them with image layout stuff...

Rofl, I was originally going to explain it in detail, but then I realized it would probably raise more questions than it would answer.

[Apoc]

I bash C# because it's fun to rile Apoc.

However, I quite like C# and .NET. It's much nicer to use than C++ for high-level Windows apps.

Granted, I would never use it in the way that some of the more 'dedicated' C# devs do (Apoc, Greyman, etc). However I can understand why they do it, just like they understand why I write apps in C++ that would be 'easier' to write in C++.

It's just what we're used to and what we're good at.

I'm better at C++, they're better at C#. Both languages have strengths and weaknesses, however I too take offence to you calling C# the "kiddy" language.

Whilst I understand your position (and I agree that programming has become 'too accessible'*) I think it's silly to say that just because a language is easy to use it's somehow 'kiddy'. That's what makes it so great! C++ forces you to do so much extra work that is taken care of automatically in .NET.

Sometimes being low level is a good thing (it certainly is in most of my projects -- rootkits, bots, reversing, cracking, malware research, etc). But sometimes you just want to write 'normal' code, where you don't care about all the gory low level details, and that's where I'd definitely choose C# and .NET if I wasn't so awful at it (I'm learning though).

The difference between .NET though and other 'kiddy' languages is that .NET actually is a powerful and fully-fledged programming language. You can do nearly anything in .NET which can be done in C++.

Lastly, I agree that it's currently 'too easy' to break into WoW bot writing, and that's one of the problems. However I (or someone else) could just as easily release a C++ equivalent of Blackmagic/Whitemagic and we'd be back where we are now. That being said though, I think the problem is just that people are given too much information without having to work for it. You either need to make them work for it, or be very strict on the type of questions that are allowed to be asked (hence forcing them to work for it anyway, because they need to do their own research).**

* I know that statement sounds elitist (and it may very well be so), which is why I wrapped it in quotes and felt the need to justify it. The problem as I see it is not really that programming has become too accessible per-se, it's that it's become too easy to write bad code and get away with it. Whilst .NET being forgiving is often a good thing, in the wrong hands it fosters poor-quality code, which is of course a bad thing.

** Apoc, I know you're taking a stand against the stupid questions, but it's not your conduct I'm referring to. The problem is simply with the site's goals/aims/etc. The higher-level staff simply don't want to alienate users. And whilst I can understand that, it certainly makes it frustrating for others.

EDIT:




Malloc sucks. I'll take new/delete and smart pointers any day of the week.

EDIT2:




Rofl, I was originally going to explain it in detail, but then I realized it would probably raise more questions than it would answer.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Even though it's 'too easy' to break into writing a bot; nobody is giving much help in actually putting it all together. Notice; no 'new' people have any viable bots available. Even with all the information we provide here (and on GD, and other sites) it's not NEARLY enough to create a basic functioning bot.

Programming hasn't really become too accessible to be completely honest. With Glider taken out of the scene; people feel the need to make a quick buck off their name. So here comes a crapton of silly little bots that aren't nearly up to par with any of the older 'big name' bots. (Glider and Open-Bot)

The two giants fell; and in came 500 dumbasses to pick up where they left off. (Or at least try...)

[Cypher]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Even though it's 'too easy' to break into writing a bot; nobody is giving much help in actually putting it all together. Notice; no 'new' people have any viable bots available. Even with all the information we provide here (and on GD, and other sites) it's not NEARLY enough to create a basic functioning bot.

Programming hasn't really become too accessible to be completely honest. With Glider taken out of the scene; people feel the need to make a quick buck off their name. So here comes a crapton of silly little bots that aren't nearly up to par with any of the older 'big name' bots. (Glider and Open-Bot)

The two giants fell; and in came 500 dumbasses to pick up where they left off. (Or at least try...)

Yeah I guess that's true.

From here we have a pretty skewed view of people trying to break into programming.

[adaephon]

Ease of access to a language / ease of use of a language is still a separate issue to skill of a programmer, and always will be. No matter how easy the language is to use, and how many tasks the .NET framework encapsulates away, you're still going to get programmers who think "if (value == true) return true; else return false;" is good programming practice.

People who enjoy programming and learn to program properly ultimately will be able to use a variety of languages - the concepts are the same and only the implementation details change. More importantly, one of the skills of programming is gaining the knowledge to know what language is best for the task at hand, and with this approach, no language is inherently better than any other (except VB; all languages are inherently better than VB).

People who simply learn some of the capabilities of an easily accessible language (especially those who learn it to try to make a quick buck from the latest fad) will likely never become actual programmers and never really try to understand more about why the lines of code they are typing do what they do.

[Cypher]

Ease of access to a language / ease of use of a language is still a separate issue to skill of a programmer, and always will be. No matter how easy the language is to use, and how many tasks the .NET framework encapsulates away, you're still going to get programmers who think "if (value == true) return true; else return false;" is good programming practice.

People who enjoy programming and learn to program properly ultimately will be able to use a variety of languages - the concepts are the same and only the implementation details change. More importantly, one of the skills of programming is gaining the knowledge to know what language is best for the task at hand, and with this approach, no language is inherently better than any other (except VB; all languages are inherently better than VB).

People who simply learn some of the capabilities of an easily accessible language (especially those who learn it to try to make a quick buck from the latest fad) will likely never become actual programmers and never really try to understand more about why the lines of code they are typing do what they do.

Or this one:

int Foo;
if (Blah)
Foo = 5;
else
Foo = 6;

Wutz da ternary operator?

[flo8464]

Lastly, I agree that it's currently 'too easy' to break into WoW bot writing, and that's one of the problems.

Too easy? It s joke because of this site.

I didn't really know how to use the WinAPI (in C++) for process stuff and I manged to write my own fishing bot by just copying stuff here.
Proof: You don't need to have a clue even in C++ to write stuff for WoW.

I am glad I never was happy with stuff I didn't do the work for myself (if have an urge to re-invent the wheel all the time) so I actually learned many things.

I am writing a bot for Runes of Magic right now and I have to say it's much more fun than writing a bot for WoW because I just can't copy shit here.

I only have disgust for people c&p'ing here and earning thousands of euros with it. There are people selling bots who don't have the slightest clue about reversing etc. Mmowned makes it possible.

[burton992]

Too easy? It s joke because of this site.

I didn't really know how to use the WinAPI (in C++) for process stuff and I manged to write my own fishing bot by just copying stuff here.
Proof: You don't need to have a clue even in C++ to write stuff for WoW.

I am glad I never was happy with stuff I didn't do the work for myself (if have an urge to re-invent the wheel all the time) so I actually learned many things.

I am writing a bot for Runes of Magic right now and I have to say it's much more fun than writing a bot for WoW because I just can't copy shit here.

I only have disgust for people c&p'ing here and earning thousands of euros with it. There are people selling bots who don't have the slightest clue about reversing etc. Mmowned makes it possible.

No one is asking you come to this site nor this section people post stuff in this section of the site to help people not so people can just copy it to make a wow bot, i totally agree with you on people that have took other peoples work and made profit from it, if they want to be low life scum let them do so but they always gets what coming to them liek we have seen in the past. But dont come here blaming mmowned for that, people make there own decisions in this world.

[flo8464]

I am not blaming anyone.
But its a fact, MMOWNED is breeding those commercial shitbots.

[Cypher]

No one is asking you come to this site nor this section people post stuff in this section of the site to help people not so people can just copy it to make a wow bot, i totally agree with you on people that have took other peoples work and made profit from it, if they want to be low life scum let them do so but they always gets what coming to them liek we have seen in the past. But dont come here blaming mmowned for that, people make there own decisions in this world.

Not quite sure what your post is in response to (the former part), because he wasn't attacking anyone, just giving his (quite valid) opinion.

I am not blaming anyone.
But its a fact, MMOWNED is breeding those commercial shitbots.

I 100% agree with you.

[amadmonk]

You'll note that I almost NEVER post full, functioning snippets (well, on the normal forum, anyway. On the elite forum, people know what they're doing, so it's a courtesy. Plus, that way they get to pick apart all the holes and ugliness in my code).

Amusing language wars aside, there really aren't any "bad" mainstream languages. I mean, you can debate pro's and con's till the cows come home -- and there are some epic Python/Ruby or C#/Java or C++/everything else or ASM/everything else threads out there -- but ultimately ANY skilled craftsman knows to use the right tool for the job.

As to "ease of accessibility," I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I'm NOT a fan of big snippets of unadulterated code. The main reason -- aside from too many punters with crap-ass bots making us all look bad -- is that people don't LEARN anything. However, I'm a BIG fan of tutorials that explain the underlying theory, because that's how people LEARN shit, which -- in my non-humble opinion -- is the best thing that can come out of this forum for novice programmers.

OT: getting vararg lists to work when hooking (via DRx hooks) from unmanaged to managed is an evil, evil bitch. I finally made it work, only to discover that FrameScript_SendEvent doesn't actually send ALL events... *sigh*

[Kryso]

I'm mostly leeching offsets here (because I suck at finding stuff), but I I've learned a lot here and so did many other people. It really depends on fact if you want to learn or not. I've rewritten everything I needed and found somewhere to make my own wow tool, because I don't like using others code when I don't have to, but I like the opportunity to see how exactly others write it. I've actually never read any book about programming, everything I know is from msdn, open source projects, code snippets and tutorials, and I'm not entirely bad. So I don't think that code snippets are that evil as you say.