Anyone doing OS X development of bot etc...?

[Cypher]

Rofl. Epic win.

[Athrin Onu]

Actually, re-read what you just said and you'll be surprised.


And no, I'm not questioning your coding skills against mine, or anything like that, so drop the "i'm pro" cockiness. Please re-read my first post. I'm questioning why the hell you were attacking every mac developer out there. I couldn't really give a damn what you know and don't, but you sure as hell don't have the right to basically call every mac user a retard.

Hi, I'm a Mac user and would appreciate it if you would quit making the rest of us look bad.

In the same strain, you gotta consider this to a degree, Cypher - Mac users are constantly PMing you in hope of finding a solution to model editing because no solution exists. If no solution existed for Windows, imagine the veritable flood of moronic PMs that would be flooding your inbox from average Windows script kiddies as well.

It isn't so much to do with a target demographic using a certain kind of operating system so much as it is the target demographic that said operating system targets. Windows is the primary gaming platform - therefore, intelligent gamers and game hackers alike will select it as their platform of choice because, logistically, it makes sense to do so. Mac gamers are a smaller demographic and, nine times out of ten, are retards because they're part of the younger crowd who don't have the choice to use a Windows PC for gaming instead.

I have no bias either way as far as operating systems are concerned - each respective OS has its benefits - and Windows simply has a much, much better gamer base. I choose to use a Mac because I'm an ObjC / Python developer, and not a gamer. If I was a gamer I would use a PC.

TL;DR: There are stupid people all over the place, it just so happens that more retards agglomerate to a specific stereotype because they have no choice.

[Patchumz]

Hi, I'm a Mac user and would appreciate it if you would quit making the rest of us look bad.

In the same strain, you gotta consider this to a degree, Cypher - Mac users are constantly PMing you in hope of finding a solution to model editing because no solution exists. If no solution existed for Windows, imagine the veritable flood of moronic PMs that would be flooding your inbox from average Windows script kiddies as well.

It isn't so much to do with a target demographic using a certain kind of operating system so much as it is the target demographic that said operating system targets. Windows is the primary gaming platform - therefore, intelligent gamers and game hackers alike will select it as their platform of choice because, logistically, it makes sense to do so. Mac gamers are a smaller demographic and, nine times out of ten, are retards because they're part of the younger crowd who don't have the choice to use a Windows PC for gaming instead.

I have no bias either way as far as operating systems are concerned - each respective OS has its benefits - and Windows simply has a much, much better gamer base. I choose to use a Mac because I'm an ObjC / Python developer, and not a gamer. If I was a gamer I would use a PC.

TL;DR: There are stupid people all over the place, it just so happens that more retards agglomerate to a specific stereotype because they have no choice.

The fact that you write in Obj-C and still choose PC gaming over Mac gaming makes me /boggle my ass off, since after starting Obj-C compared to the non-Mac specific languages I see no way of going back.. And the same goes for Mac gaming, it's just better, and by better I mean more stable.. and Apple computers run everything faster than everyone else's computers. (Dell runs windows slower than an Apple computer, go figure).

Now i shall never look at this thread again for it will be a waste of my time, lol.

[Cypher]

Hi, I'm a Mac user and would appreciate it if you would quit making the rest of us look bad.

In the same strain, you gotta consider this to a degree, Cypher - Mac users are constantly PMing you in hope of finding a solution to model editing because no solution exists. If no solution existed for Windows, imagine the veritable flood of moronic PMs that would be flooding your inbox from average Windows script kiddies as well.

It isn't so much to do with a target demographic using a certain kind of operating system so much as it is the target demographic that said operating system targets. Windows is the primary gaming platform - therefore, intelligent gamers and game hackers alike will select it as their platform of choice because, logistically, it makes sense to do so. Mac gamers are a smaller demographic and, nine times out of ten, are retards because they're part of the younger crowd who don't have the choice to use a Windows PC for gaming instead.

I have no bias either way as far as operating systems are concerned - each respective OS has its benefits - and Windows simply has a much, much better gamer base. I choose to use a Mac because I'm an ObjC / Python developer, and not a gamer. If I was a gamer I would use a PC.

TL;DR: There are stupid people all over the place, it just so happens that more retards agglomerate to a specific stereotype because they have no choice.

You make a good point and thank you for presenting it appropriately.

Though there is a flaw in your logic. The Windows user base DEFINATELY has its share of retards, that's not what I'm mainly getting at though, my point was that most of the Mac's DEVELOPER userbase seem to suffer from a learning disability.

Writing a model edit fix is not like most other game based hacks in that it doesn't require much knowledge into how the game works (as opposed to things like gravity/jump height/teleportation/etc which require an intimate knowledge to find from scratch). The check is actually quite easy to find, all you have to do is fire up WoW with a changed model, wait for the crash, copy down the error message, find it in your disassembler, then trace it backwards to somewhere where you can patch so that the check and crash is bypassed.

I'm not saying that its going to be easy for a regular developer to do that, quite the opposite, you still need to have knowledge in reverse engineering. My point is that Mac users seem to have so little knowledge of the actual internals of their operating system and platform, wheras most of the Windows developers I know are qute knowledgeable about their platform and what 'makes it tick'.

This may be because I hang around quite an 'intellectual' developing community most of the time, but I still think it's interesting that most Mac developers (not all, but most) seem to know so little about their target platform which they defend so fiercly.

There are always going to be stupid people around, that's just how the world works, it'd be great if we could kill them all off but unfortunately we just have to live with them. The point is there seem to be more of them in the Mac developing community.

PS. Why did you choose Obj-C? Even for a Mac I would've gone for C++ due to the fact it's much easier to write platform independent code. Also due to the fact that it would make the transition to windows programming (if that transition was ever wanted/needed) much easier.

[Cypher]

The fact that you write in Obj-C and still choose PC gaming over Mac gaming makes me /boggle my ass off, since after starting Obj-C compared to the non-Mac specific languages I see no way of going back.. And the same goes for Mac gaming, it's just better, and by better I mean more stable.. and Apple computers run everything faster than everyone else's computers. (Dell runs windows slower than an Apple computer, go figure).

Now i shall never look at this thread again for it will be a waste of my time, lol.

Dell is a PC vendor not a PC, it has nothing to do with the architecture that PCs run on and the reason that their implementations are slow is because they bog them down with useless crap. Dell are a terrible example and you seem to be using them just to further your agenda.

I fail to see how Mac gaming is 'better'. If by 'better' you mean 'has less games' then sure, Macs are AWESOME! But i digress. Apple computers are by no means faster than PCs, thats a silly thing to say given they both currently run on the same hardware and noone made the opposite (misguided) accusation.

Normally I'd give you a comprehensive reply but if you're not coming back I thought I'd just quickly point out the obvious and move on to less fruitless endeavors.

[Athrin Onu]

You make a good point and thank you for presenting it appropriately.

Though there is a flaw in your logic. The Windows user base DEFINATELY has its share of retards, that's not what I'm mainly getting at though, my point was that most of the Mac's DEVELOPER userbase seem to suffer from a learning disability.

Writing a model edit fix is not like most other game based hacks in that it doesn't require much knowledge into how the game works (as opposed to things like gravity/jump height/teleportation/etc which require an intimate knowledge to find from scratch). The check is actually quite easy to find, all you have to do is fire up WoW with a changed model, wait for the crash, copy down the error message, find it in your disassembler, then trace it backwards to somewhere where you can patch so that the check and crash is bypassed.

I'm not saying that its going to be easy for a regular developer to do that, quite the opposite, you still need to have knowledge in reverse engineering. My point is that Mac users seem to have so little knowledge of the actual internals of their operating system and platform, wheras most of the Windows developers I know are qute knowledgeable about their platform and what 'makes it tick'.

This may be because I hang around quite an 'intellectual' developing community most of the time, but I still think it's interesting that most Mac developers (not all, but most) seem to know so little about their target platform which they defend so fiercly.

There are always going to be stupid people around, that's just how the world works, it'd be great if we could kill them all off but unfortunately we just have to live with them. The point is there seem to be more of them in the Mac developing community.

PS. Why did you choose Obj-C? Even for a Mac I would've gone for C++ due to the fact it's much easier to write platform independent code. Also due to the fact that it would make the transition to windows programming (if that transition was ever wanted/needed) much easier.

The problem with this is that, given enough time, anyone who delves deep enough into OS X's fundamental platform base typically ends up switching to FreeBSD or some other "pure" form of BSD, which I would have done already if not for my ObjC tie-ins.

Most of the smart Mac developers are pursuing projects such as Adium. It's a pressing matter to find a good Mac developer because Macs are design-centric machines for the most part and a decent number of people buy them for the design aspect. Notably, these same people try to program and end up shooting the program to hell because, while they can make it damn pretty, they can't make it do much else. On the Windows end it's the opposite - a program can be extremely functional, but it sure will look like horse ass at runtime (although there are exceptions to every rule, of course).

Which I suppose leads into the next question - I chose ObjC because, where I live, there's been a strangely high demand for programmers specifically targeting the Mac platform. That and iPhone apps are fun to develop in much the same way Legos used to be fun to play with. I learn C++, Perl, and ASM off to the side just for the hell of it and, for the reasons you said, cross-platform interoperability.

The Mac userbase is always going to be loud and belligerent when it comes to their selection of computer. Why that is, I have no idea... I mean, hell, I own a MacBook Pro, 2 iPhones and an Apple TV and don't bring it up at every opportunity to people who happen to be talking about their computers. I also own a custom-built PC just for the occasional game for some Radeon HD 4870 goodness. I think somewhere along the lines it spawned from the fact that, in the late 90s (post-1998 when Steve Jobs returned), owning a Mac or being a dedicated Mac user was something to be proud of when ever other person seemed to own a PC. That's not the case any more and they all sound like idiots.

What people fail to realize is that, as time passes, operating systems aren't going to grow apart so much as they're going to start growing together. Boot Camp is one fine example of this, as well as Vista having native EFI support although Macs are the only hardware that use EFI extensively. It doesn't matter whose is better or whatever - for the most part they can accomplish the same thing, just in different ways, and it boils down to personal preference.

And once again, a TL;DR: The Mac developer base tends to be retarded because every one of them that labels themself as a developer is really a designer that knows REALBasic.

I fail to see how Mac gaming is 'better'. If by 'better' you mean 'has less games' then sure, Macs are AWESOME! But i digress. Apple computers are by no means faster than PCs, thats a silly thing to say given they both currently run on the same hardware and noone made the opposite (misguided) accusation.

This is quite true, the only really difference between Mac and PC hardware is Apple's unwavering dependency on EFI for some reason.

Although, I gotta admit, I get a better WoW framerate in OS X, but that's not to the credit of it being a Mac so much as it is because it uses OpenGL.

[Xarg0]

Well the only Problem with Wows OpenGL implementation is the lack of hardware cursor suport :/

[Cypher]

I think you're right about people mislabeling themselves as developers, also about the key demographics of the Mac platform.

From a gaming standpoint whether your OS takes advantage of EFI or not doesn't really make a difference.

Also, as nice as OGL is, it always seems to be a step (or several) behind DX. Also, if you're getting a low enough framerate in a game like WoW that changing rendering engines makes a noticeable difference then I think your computer needs an upgrade.

[Athrin Onu]

I think you're right about people mislabeling themselves as developers, also about the key demographics of the Mac platform.

From a gaming standpoint whether your OS takes advantage of EFI or not doesn't really make a difference.

Also, as nice as OGL is, it always seems to be a step (or several) behind DX. Also, if you're getting a low enough framerate in a game like WoW that changing rendering engines makes a noticeable difference then I think your computer needs an upgrade.

It makes a difference on my Mac.

And by that, I mean the difference between OGL in OS X and DirectX in XP.

On my PC I'm clocking 80FPS minimum everywhere regardless.

[Cypher]

It makes a difference on my Mac.

And by that, I mean the difference between OGL in OS X and DirectX in XP.

On my PC I'm clocking 80FPS minimum everywhere regardless.

If I disable vsync I get about 400-600 on WoW depending what I'm doing, so mac/pc/dx/ogl doesn't really bother me.