The ExileAPI and GameHelper dev's have both ended support for the programs (Hope for an alternate?) menu

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  1. #1
    Forumuser1000's Avatar Active Member
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    The ExileAPI and GameHelper dev's have both ended support for the programs (Hope for an alternate?)

    Opening up a thread for discussion out here, as per mod advice.

    Just want to start by saying we don't know if it's a temporary measure or permanent end to either of them.

    If it is the end to both, a huge thanks to both developers and everyone else who contributed to the programs. You people are all amazing. AMAZING.

    Finally I'd like to say to anyone reading this, there is a pile of us here who would be happy to donate or financially support an alternative (or the existing programs). POE is completely and utterly unplayable as it is without using at least one of the current two programs. A lot of us have been around here for ages and have donated/contributed to previous programs too, only to see them go private and then we get shut out with no invitation, despite being willing to pay. Which leaves most of us in the position of just having to move on to other games instead of being able to stay and keep playing with friends.

    Thanks and have a great day.

    FoUs1000.

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  2. #2
    RatMonkey's Avatar Contributor
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    Going private makes development of plugins difficult, because a lot of the plugins are maintained with the idea of open source. It worked for TehCheat's fork to a certain extent though. With not knowing what ones are out there, currently we know that there is TehCheat's fork, Zaafar's, and the public fork, but if they all go private, we'll be unsure which plugins are supported by which forks. This whole hassle of multiple forks caused issues with the public/tehcheat's fork where half of the plugins being maintained were for one or the other. I can't imagine what development would look like if it was so spread through many private channels. I believe in the coming weeks we may see a new thread and someone take over the public fork. I've made several plugins and that's about as far as my abilities go. Last league I helped with the offsets on the public fork, but it's just too much work for someone like me to do it. Not enough experience etc.

    I believe someone with the passion will at least do a "maintenance" fork until something can be figured out next league. If not, and while I think that's unlikely, then if no one steps up this would be the death of the public fork.

  3. #3
    Sychotix's Avatar Moderator Authenticator enabled
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    Originally Posted by RatMonkey View Post
    Going private makes development of plugins difficult, because a lot of the plugins are maintained with the idea of open source. It worked for TehCheat's fork to a certain extent though. With not knowing what ones are out there, currently we know that there is TehCheat's fork, Zaafar's, and the public fork, but if they all go private, we'll be unsure which plugins are supported by which forks. This whole hassle of multiple forks caused issues with the public/tehcheat's fork where half of the plugins being maintained were for one or the other. I can't imagine what development would look like if it was so spread through many private channels. I believe in the coming weeks we may see a new thread and someone take over the public fork. I've made several plugins and that's about as far as my abilities go. Last league I helped with the offsets on the public fork, but it's just too much work for someone like me to do it. Not enough experience etc.

    I believe someone with the passion will at least do a "maintenance" fork until something can be figured out next league. If not, and while I think that's unlikely, then if no one steps up this would be the death of the public fork.
    I think the only HUD-like thing that is private right now is TC's fork that has been private for many leagues now. As far as I'm aware, neither Queuete or GameHelper are going private... just stopping development entirely.

    My recommendation to anyone looking to step up and maintain a fork would be to maintain GameHelper as it was designed to be minimal and easy to update. That said, GameHelper put a LOT of work into trying to automate the process with pattern scanning and it is a HUGE process trying to make things ready so early in the league. Not to mention it slows down his league start.

    Also I want to remind everyone that this isn't a trade thread so please keep the "I would donate or pay a subscription for something like this" to a minimum.

  4. Thanks NoodlesAreTheBest (1 members gave Thanks to Sychotix for this useful post)
  5. #4
    RatMonkey's Avatar Contributor
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    Originally Posted by Sychotix View Post
    I think the only HUD-like thing that is private right now is TC's fork that has been private for many leagues now. As far as I'm aware, neither Queuete or GameHelper are going private... just stopping development entirely.

    My recommendation to anyone looking to step up and maintain a fork would be to maintain GameHelper as it was designed to be minimal and easy to update. That said, GameHelper put a LOT of work into trying to automate the process with pattern scanning and it is a HUGE process trying to make things ready so early in the league. Not to mention it slows down his league start.

    Also I want to remind everyone that this isn't a trade thread so please keep the "I would donate or pay a subscription for something like this" to a minimum.
    Yeah, you're right. Wlastas was working on a version of GameHelper that had a lot of plugin support. He posted and then disappeared after apparently, his dog was sick, but I think that's a start. I'm just confused as to the whole process it seems many people that were maintaining the various "public" forks, etc, just up and quit/retired at the exact same time.

    It wouldn't surprise me if we see the barebones GameHelper revive and then another fork of that which Wlastas was working on becoming a thing with a lot of plugin support.

  6. #5
    NoodlesAreTheBest's Avatar Member
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    Forgive me for asking, but is there a suggestion as to who can receive information about TC's private fork?
    I don't want to go around messaging anyone about it, because I've noticed that it's often considered impolite, or just ignored.

  7. #6
    Aboleth's Avatar Member
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    My guess is that somehow they got tracked down through GitHub and received a cease and desist from GGG.

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    RatMonkey's Avatar Contributor
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    Originally Posted by Aboleth View Post
    My guess is that somehow they got tracked down through GitHub and received a cease and desist from GGG.
    For what, though? The nationality of these individuals is not known. Warning them for what? Nothing illegal is happening, the developers themselves are not breaking any terms or conditions by creating an open source project. What will GGG do, suddenly hire lawyers in Russia, Mexico, or South Africa to take "legal actions" against them? I know a few of the developers are in Russia and Eastern Europe. Good luck GGG funding a whole legal witch-hunt, which will never happen. I just don't think such notices would make a bunch of people suddenly cower up and run from the big bad GGG.

    From what I understand, the only C&D letters that matter are when the company is located within the same sovereign nation, and the target is doing something specifically illegal. Breaking a terms and conditions of a game is not illegal, hence why people get "banned"

    So since neither are the case here, there is zero fear from big bad GGG. I think, and it's just a theory, but I think the "userbase" of these tools actually caused this. Turning everything upside down trying to exploit all the preloads etc. I mean the GameHelper thread was literally taken over with 3-4 pages of it before it was closed, and I think with all the Reddit/GGG taking notice, the devs were concerned that the tool would be hammered down on harder than ever if people kept trying to find these "exploits"

    I mean there is using a tool to help one do things and make things easier, then there's straight up abusing the mechanics by trying to get massive loot explosions. The idea I think was that mass people may get banned for using the tool from GGG if they see the users of the tool were all trying to abuse what had become "viral" on Reddit and GGG's site.

  9. #8
    Sychotix's Avatar Moderator Authenticator enabled
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    Originally Posted by RatMonkey View Post
    For what, though? The nationality of these individuals is not known. Warning them for what? Nothing illegal is happening, the developers themselves are not breaking any terms or conditions by creating an open source project. What will GGG do, suddenly hire lawyers in Russia, Mexico, or South Africa to take "legal actions" against them? I know a few of the developers are in Russia and Eastern Europe. Good luck GGG funding a whole legal witch-hunt, which will never happen. I just don't think such notices would make a bunch of people suddenly cower up and run from the big bad GGG.

    From what I understand, the only C&D letters that matter are when the company is located within the same sovereign nation, and the target is doing something specifically illegal. Breaking a terms and conditions of a game is not illegal, hence why people get "banned"

    So since neither are the case here, there is zero fear from big bad GGG. I think, and it's just a theory, but I think the "userbase" of these tools actually caused this. Turning everything upside down trying to exploit all the preloads etc. I mean the GameHelper thread was literally taken over with 3-4 pages of it before it was closed, and I think with all the Reddit/GGG taking notice, the devs were concerned that the tool would be hammered down on harder than ever if people kept trying to find these "exploits"

    I mean there is using a tool to help one do things and make things easier, then there's straight up abusing the mechanics by trying to get massive loot explosions. The idea I think was that mass people may get banned for using the tool from GGG if they see the users of the tool were all trying to abuse what had become "viral" on Reddit and GGG's site.
    You should do some reading on Bossland vs Blizzard Cheating in online games - Wikipedia

  10. Thanks Aboleth, GameHelper (2 members gave Thanks to Sychotix for this useful post)
  11. #9
    arturino009's Avatar Active Member
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    Originally Posted by Sychotix View Post
    You should do some reading on Bossland vs Blizzard Cheating in online games - Wikipedia
    Most of those measures were in cases where the cheat developers were profiting from the creation of the cheats, like subscriptions and selling them. "Our" tools were free and open-source.

    It also just doesn't make sense from the side of GGG to issue any legal measures. PoE is not a competetive game, it's basically singleplayer, using cheats doesn't impact the game and its community at all, so GGG is not hurt at all by the use of these cheats (I'm not talking about botting. That could be hurtful to the community). The only exceptions would be a significant advantage over other players, like hunting god-molested rares via preloads, but all of those get patched out by GGG anyways, and its their fault for making such a stupid "feature" anyways. If we believe Chris, the rare preloading was already anticipated and there were countermeasures, so it wasn't that bad from the start. Beast preloads were removed last league. Heist chest contents were removed last league. I heard that there were lab chest contents before, but those were removed as well. I actually don't know if there is ANYTHING in the game left that ExileAPI users would benefit from like things mentioned before. Most of the tools are QoL, not exploits of the game.

    I wouldn't say that all of those developers quit (at least I hope not). Currently these tools just got too much attention. If a large part of the games community starts using these cheats, it would be pretty bad for the future. If the tools become too mainstream, GGG will be forced to implement stronger countermeasures (since it's bad for their image if a lot of people are using these tools), and the qol will be lost and all the effort to create them as well.

    I hope they are just laying low until this all blows over. Not Queuete though, since he stopped completely, but he was mostly accepting pull requests anyway lately, so we just need another repo that does the same thing, for now atleast.

  12. Thanks RatMonkey (1 members gave Thanks to arturino009 for this useful post)
  13. #10
    RatMonkey's Avatar Contributor
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    Originally Posted by arturino009 View Post
    Most of those measures were in cases where the cheat developers were profiting from the creation of the cheats, like subscriptions and selling them. "Our" tools were free and open-source.

    It also just doesn't make sense from the side of GGG to issue any legal measures. PoE is not a competetive game, it's basically singleplayer, using cheats doesn't impact the game and its community at all, so GGG is not hurt at all by the use of these cheats (I'm not talking about botting. That could be hurtful to the community). The only exceptions would be a significant advantage over other players, like hunting god-molested rares via preloads, but all of those get patched out by GGG anyways, and its their fault for making such a stupid "feature" anyways. If we believe Chris, the rare preloading was already anticipated and there were countermeasures, so it wasn't that bad from the start. Beast preloads were removed last league. Heist chest contents were removed last league. I heard that there were lab chest contents before, but those were removed as well. I actually don't know if there is ANYTHING in the game left that ExileAPI users would benefit from like things mentioned before. Most of the tools are QoL, not exploits of the game.

    I wouldn't say that all of those developers quit (at least I hope not). Currently these tools just got too much attention. If a large part of the games community starts using these cheats, it would be pretty bad for the future. If the tools become too mainstream, GGG will be forced to implement stronger countermeasures (since it's bad for their image if a lot of people are using these tools), and the qol will be lost and all the effort to create them as well.

    I hope they are just laying low until this all blows over. Not Queuete though, since he stopped completely, but he was mostly accepting pull requests anyway lately, so we just need another repo that does the same thing, for now atleast.
    Exactly. In the case above, this was a legitimate business that was working under a profit/loss and so, and financial gain for causing damage and disruption to X can be sued in court over. Last I checked, Github users are protected under the GPL. GGG could sue Github for "damages", but good luck with that. Bigger companies have tried and lost. What people do with the code that's being maintained and posted, is not the fault of the person maintaining the repo, or any user that contributes to it. That's why people can be "banned" in games for hacking. When was the last time you say someone cheating in a game to get an advantage over someone, let's say wallhack or esp, having fun with it and then having the company ban them and sue them for damages?

    I've only heard of it when financial gain was involved, or a company. Do you know how much money it takes for a company to hire lawyers INTERNATIONALLY to go after someone and then have the burden of proof that what the individual person is doing is severely damaging their company? Try tens of thousands to get the ball anywhere. I'm sure GGG would start the process and by the end of it will be HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars down in the hole, only to have a judge not award them any damages and that's the end of the case. I'm gonna say right now that a simple, domestic lawsuit from one person to the next for damages is often in the tens of thousands. Now try all the stuff GGG has to do with lawyers in other countries, etc. This is not a cut and dry lawsuit, it will be hundreds of thousands before they get anywhere.

    And that's all moot because they'd never even try, because they know they have no leg to stand on anyway. The person would just say "It was maintained on github" and the lawsuit ends, right there.

  14. #11
    Sychotix's Avatar Moderator Authenticator enabled
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    I don't think GPL will offer any protections against distribution and support of a compiled binary, nor do I think money has to be involved for a cease and desist/lawsuit to be filed. If it was filed in the US at least, I'd guess it would go for an out of court settlement as nobody in their right mind would fight in court with the precedent that has been set. There is a reason there aren't many public cheats/bots for Blizzard games. They KNOW they're sue happy. Other companies can and have piggy backed off Bossland vs Blizzard.

    Also, don't forget GGG was bought by Tencent. Do I think it is likely that they'll do anything? No. But I'm not them. Respect their decisions to bow out.

  15. Thanks GameHelper (1 members gave Thanks to Sychotix for this useful post)
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    RatMonkey's Avatar Contributor
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    Originally Posted by Sychotix View Post
    I don't think GPL will offer any protections against distribution and support of a compiled binary, nor do I think money has to be involved for a cease and desist/lawsuit to be filed. If it was filed in the US at least, I'd guess it would go for an out of court settlement as nobody in their right mind would fight in court with the precedent that has been set. There is a reason there aren't many public cheats/bots for Blizzard games. They KNOW they're sue happy. Other companies can and have piggy backed off Bossland vs Blizzard.

    Also, don't forget GGG was bought by Tencent. Do I think it is likely that they'll do anything? No. But I'm not them. Respect their decisions to bow out.
    That's the dangerous part is the "releases" and the binaries, but there are many ways around that to simply not provide a binary and simply provide the means to compile it quickly from the loader code. That's of course if the whole "legal" threat was there. It isn't, I just feel like this whole thing was a safety precaution and done by everyone going nuts over the preloads and bringing ridiculous attention to both plugins. Not sure what was going on in the GameHelper realm, but people were getting pretty demanding of him and you can tell he was frustrated with all the requests/begging for help. I think you would have more insight into what happened? Since he asked the thread to be closed. Anyway, this is all just an unfortunate timing for people to slip away at the same time. No matter what people will complain and whine if they can't have access to the direct .exe and they have to jump into compiling stuff. I guess no one wins in either situation.

    I'm torn between trying to jump into GameHelper and playing around with the work Wlastas was doing to make broader plugin support. Just wish I was more knowledgable about pointers and finding offsets. Both ExileAPI and GameHelper (Overlay?) are great tools, but I think if we can get plugin support from ExileAPI and offset support into GameHelper, that is a far superior framework.

  17. #13
    Sychotix's Avatar Moderator Authenticator enabled
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    Originally Posted by RatMonkey View Post
    I'm torn between trying to jump into GameHelper and playing around with the work Wlastas was doing to make broader plugin support. Just wish I was more knowledgable about pointers and finding offsets. Both ExileAPI and GameHelper (Overlay?) are great tools, but I think if we can get plugin support from ExileAPI and offset support into GameHelper, that is a far superior framework.
    Keep in mind, one of the reasons GameHelper didn't really have plugin support (at least initially) was because it was more of a mini-fied HUD with minimal offsets and minimum functionality for league start. I'm guessing what wlastas did was add the ability to dynamically load offsets and allow plugins to use them.

    GameHelper is probably the place to start. Save off the binary right now, then use tools like Ghidra to analyze the binary for an easier time finding offsets. If you know where the health variable is accessed in the code... you can use pattern matching to find the new offset.

    Like if the old one accessed it at [lifeComponentBaseAddress+0x4]... the offset would be 0x4. Lets say it breaks next patch. You load up the old binary, load up the new binary, generate a pattern for the old binary to find the same function.... then use that pattern to locate it in the new binary. Maybe they added an int above... so it got pushed to [lifeComponentBaseAddress+0x8]

    Cheat engine's structure dissector can also be good (and other various tools it has).

  18. #14
    VioletVibes's Avatar Active Member
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    The project is still alive on github (due to how forks and deleting a public repo works). As for plugin support, like people have previously mentioned, new plugins = new offsets = more stuff to update during league launch.

    Only thing I'm personally missing from GH is PickIt/SimplePickit as I'm currently using PoeApiKit for that but again, adding it to GH would require more offsets/more patterns to be made/more time spent updating it.

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    gaconex's Avatar Member
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    i just want to keep develop gamehelper but without source code and any instruction , hopeless. Preload mob and map are basic then, i should learn c++ !

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